How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Aerlana]

cause it only benefits a small portion of the raiding population.

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

And you can also use old content / "low" content to improve yourself. No need to permanently train in savage content. you are blackmage? A matter of this job is heavy movement fight. you can try to train this in nearly any other content. An example.


Yes, those kind a resultats are only usefull in some content, but you can train in any, you can use parser to help other people.

for the benchmark to know if you need to improve, it is an idea, just have t odo one for each job on each content. (enjoy). It could be a good thing yes. and no one here (i think) is against it. But the parser is a first step before anything else.

[RuleofThree]

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Ok, this thread has established numerous times that trolls will be trolls, parser or not. I am just saying, the trolls will now have access to numbers to fuel their asshatery. I am in no way saying "No parsers cause parser encite trolling." That's not true, I am saying "Parsing will give trolls more fuel." They will troll with or without a parser...this is an agreed upon fact.

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

Once again, people advocating the desire for an official parser are skirting what I am asking: Where are the benchmarks? I can't be more serious. You advocate use of parsers, you want the population to 'git gud,' and yet all you do is throw us a parser, give us no benchmarks to go off of based on gear or level we currently are, and expect us to just 'know how to interpret it all.' I have been bending over backwards, trying to figure out how to improve with my dark knight, despite only playing it for the second tank mount. So much so that I've read this 28 page monstrosity, twice, and despite everything, apparently I'm still bad according to the general populace. I am in full i360 gear, I am not going to pull the dps projected by people in raid gear. Yet, I have no benchmark with which to determine if I am doing the best I can for the gear I have, or if I really am bad.

Where is the benchmark so I can have something to compare my numbers to? Without this, the number I'm looking at after a dungeon is just that...a friggen number! Where is the context? I can't use the data on fflogs, because they are minimum i380...not i360. I can't ask another dark knight, because again, they are in better gear. The best they are going to tell me is 'Just follow rotation. Dark Arts everything when you can, especially for Carve and Spit. Splice in a Hate combo Rotation every now and then when taking a boss outside of tank stance, and always, always use Delerium for Blood weapon, not blood price. Other than that...it's pretty easy.'...

....that doesn't help me with the number I am looking at. Where is the number to compare that tells me if I'm ok, or if I'm far off the norm for my gear? Jesus, you guys promote this parser as a wonderful learning tool....but it's akin to giving a guy a German dictionary, and plopping him in Berlin and saying 'Well, you have the tools! Use them!'

[Shurrikhan]

Jesus, you guys promote this parser as a wonderful learning tool....but it's akin to giving a guy a German dictionary, and plopping him in Berlin and saying 'Well, you have the tools! Use them!'

You know what, I can't wholly disagree with that. At all.

I feel like most times its nearer to a audio-testing pronunciation guide being given before class, but there are certainly less intuitively understandable situations for which we only have the numbers to help and where those numbers feel insufficient for understanding. Which is why I'd like to see more from an official parser, but in the meantime...

FFlogs. The answer is generally fflogs and tools for weighing your own stats before attempting comparisons between yourself and the players (not numbers) you're studying. And knowing your raid DPS buff intervals. (The "context" of DRK dps apart from fight-specific uptime tricks.)

[RuleofThree]

You know what, I can't wholly disagree with that. At all.

I feel like most times its nearer to a audio-testing pronunciation guide being given before class, but there are certainly less intuitively understandable situations for which we only have the numbers to help and where those numbers feel insufficient for understanding. Which is why I'd like to see more from an official parser, but in the meantime...

FFlogs. The answer is generally fflogs and tools for weighing your own stats before attempting comparisons between yourself and the players you're studying. And knowing your raid DPS buff intervals.

I am not suppose to swear on the forums, I think. I think it's one of the reasons I was temp banned from the forums a while back...got so frustrated, it got the best of me...but...

Where is the benchmark so I can have something to compare my numbers to? Without this, the number I'm looking at after a dungeon is just that...a friggen number! Where is the context? I can't use the data on fflogs, because they are minimum i380...not i360. I can't ask another dark knight, because again, they are in better gear. The best they are going to tell me is 'Just follow rotation. Dark Arts everything when you can, especially for Carve and Spit. Splice in a Hate combo Rotation every now and then when taking a boss outside of tank stance, and always, always use Delerium for Blood weapon, not blood price. Other than that...it's pretty easy.'...

j...f....c

I can't be any clearer.

I get that you are not disagreeing, or at least neutral with what I am saying. But you are skirting it as well..it's getting frustrating. I'd make that bold, underlined, and italicized text 64 point size if I could as well, because you clearly missed it.

I. can not. use. fflogs. It will give me an approximation but that is it at best I have no idea if I should be under that number of the i380 geared dark knight by a few hundred, or a few thousand. There is nothing fflogs - a source dedicated to parsing and analyzing current raid content - can give me, for an i360 dark knight that is so fucking tired of being called a bad on a job he is playing for fun.

[Shurrikhan]

I get that you are not disagreeing, or at least neutral with what I am saying. But you are skirting it as well..it's getting frustrating. I'd make that bold, underlined, and italicized text 64 point size if I could as well, because you clearly missed it.

I. can not. use. fflogs. It will give me an approximation but that is it at best I have no idea if I should be under that number of the i380 geared dark knight by a few hundred, or a few thousand. There is nothing fflogs - a source dedicated to parsing and analyzing current raid content - can give me, for an i360 dark knight that is so fucking tired of being called a bad on a job he is playing for fun.

I can't be any clearer.

Okay. And I should have been more clear. Fair enough.

You're very wrong that FFlogs can provide nothing for you. You're entirely wrong that you cannot use them. There is only one thing they cannot provide, which is an easily accessible bank of parses at precisely i360. Its benchmark, however, can still be approximated via trends from 340 to 370 to 380 (yes, the former tiers still exist on FFlogs), as all their lead parses will still equally account for DRK's only buffs since 4.0. You have the appropriate number available to you. Not conveniently, but you have it. And, as I said, you can come up with an even tighter fit estimate by checking your stat weights before drawing the comparison. That's as close an estimate as anyone else can get; crit chance, jump-sync, and compositional factors will often cause more difference than any 10 item levels to perfect play.

Which is why I have to wonder... Why do you need that number? You just mentioned that a "friggen number" is just a "friggen number" without its context. Well, the context has not changed since the earliest-tier parses accessible. The meta has scarcely if at all changed this expansion. DRK balance and raid buff uptime have not changed since, again, the earliest tier lead parses on FFlogs. Rotation, therefore, and all damage-increasing tricks, have not changed. The context is the percentile. Do what they do. Read the context of their raid buffs against their use of Bloodsplitter. Check their TBN usage against their cotank's skill deployment. The number itself does not matter.

You're right; I dismissed certain portions of your post, almost if I hadn't read them. Because you can do the things you claimed impossible, so long as you -- as you yourself suggested -- pay attention to the context. You say FFlogs can't work for you; I can determine then that you're not using them to their fullest.

I wish it was easier. I wish it didn't damn near require FFlogs. But it's possible to do all the things you claim impossible, all because you're comparing numbers alone--or else asking for precision that is simply not possible save across tens of personal and guiding parses each--not their tricks or rotations or synergies that should be guiding you.

In the future, I'll apply bold.

:: Should it be easier to do this analysis? Yes. Should we need an external site for it? No. But for we now we do need it, but it can technically do all those things you're requesting.

[Penthea]

Yet, I have no benchmark with which to determine if I am doing the best I can for the gear I have, or if I really am bad.'

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

The main context for performance people often use is their own. They judge other people versus their own performance. This is flawed if you don't take gear into consideration. Someone might look bad compared to you but if they're 15 ilvls lower...then no wonder?

People reading this post will likely think "but of course I look at their gear, anyone would" and great if they do, but my time in WoW taught me that it is very common for people to not take gear into consideration.

Of course someone doing great dps in bad gear doesn't mean they do enough dps for the fight. In that case if you remove them you can just say to them "sorry your gear isn't good enough for this fight". But if someone only looked at their numbers and didn't bother checking the gear may instead say "learn to play your class properly" and this is where arguments can start. The player about to get kicked may be aware they have good numbers for their gear and of course they would usually try to defend this. Or even worse the person isn't aware that only gear is holding them back and they may end up feeling that max lvl content is out of their reach and might respond with comments relating to elitism against beginners.

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

[KaldeaSahaline]

What excluding people based on a few results in a third party website that doesn't even need you to sign up to it, your all just proving to me the worst of what I think of this games raiding player base.

Ironically enough - comments like this are exactly why pro-parser players think people like you are toxic.

There were strategy guides for FF7 as well.

I actually have that one!

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad?

A parser isn't a turn on and instantly improve endeavor. It's something you look at and compare decisions you've made over time.

If you see an outlier (like one time I had a WHM who was top DPS in a dungeon) you look into it. In this situation the WHM wasn't the outlier, he was just a very strong player. The outliers were my 2 DPS who sustained near auto attack levels of output. The healer and I (PLD) carried them, and it was offensive to us that we had to. Between the 2 of us we sustained nearly 60% of the total groups damage. That means 2 DPS only carried 40% of the total damage done.

You go into a 24 man and see another DRG and he's doing double your damage. You can say oh it's just gear, but when you look he's only 5 ilvl higher. Then you say, why did he do so much, then look at his casts compare to yours. Then look at his sequence if you're interested, etc.

To be fair you can easily catch a lot of stuff like that just from watching the players and your ui.

This isn't as easy as you say, especially from a melee or a progression perspective. I have to have animations turned off for party members. I can't see a damn thing up there. I don't care about seeing a BLM's Enochian so that's disabled too. I only care about the things I need to care about. I don't know the first thing about a MCH, so his animations aren't going to mean a damn thing to me. However, his 1600 DPS in 01S without dying? That means he's getting kicked.

Also if you actually have the time to watch other players it's because you're not putting max effort in or you're just a considerably better player than I.

Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation.

As someone who was actually there live for the PLD shield spam. The only reason I actually noticed (and I'm a fairly accomplished PLD main mind you) was because aggro was beyond errant. I had to literally stop DPSing and look at what the tank was doing to see it.

So while an official parcer in the game would undoubtably be a good 'learning tool.' It would be only for current content. The moment it becomes outdated content, no one cares anymore. While that may be useful for the modern raider, or for someone that is level 70 looking to get in to raiding...it's not useful at all for the person currently leveling. He gets to look at his dps in Say...Void Ark, and just assume it is good at this point in time, or go with what appearantly is being suggested, and not care until it is relevant...at level 70.

Seems to me if you want to advocate using a parser as an official learning tool...it should be useful for all levels not just current savage or extremes. Granted, I'm sure only the elitest of the elite care what dps output is at level 45, but I'd say by Alexander Savage - and the iLevel there about - having benchmarks that say 'alright, in around this iLevel area, 'x' job should be pushing around 3,000dps.' This way you are knowing whether or not the best you can be at that iLevel rather than just hoping you are doing it right, and checking when you are 70.

A parser is useful at all levels. The information gleaned from it isn't as useful, but you can still test things with it, and weigh party contributions. For instance, I learned by not using flash leveling up my PLD I increased my average DPS across an entire dungeon by ~20%.

It could very well be that the person in their current gear is pushing the best dps that iLevel offers to them...and that the person is calling them a bad, because they are expecting iLevel 'x' dps, from a person that is wearing iLevel 'y' gear. I know my numbers as well, but I have to assume that the person calling me bad, is right, because even though I can see my own numbers, I have no idea if those are good numbers for my iLevel...absolutely none, because there is no benchmark to compare it too. So now...I get to sit here and wonder...am I missing something? Am I really bad? Or am I doing the best I literally can do, for the gear that I have? And he is comparing me to some unrealistic number that I can't hope to hit yet?

The fact that you are asking those questions is a good thing. That phenomenon is what gets players doing research and getting better. I've seen it on these forums and I've seen it in game countless times. Once the data is in front of them, it really opens their eyes. It's easy to say to someone you're garbage blah blah bad uninstall, but without that player seeing it live the impact is lessened.

I am in no way saying "No parsers cause parser encite trolling." That's not true, I am saying "Parsing will give trolls more fuel." They will troll with or without a parser...this is an agreed upon fact.

And this is where we must correct you. Parsing will not give trolls MORE fuel. It will change their CURRENT fuel.

Once again, people advocating the desire for an official parser are skirting what I am asking: Where are the benchmarks?

I covered this above. Benchmarks can only be gleaned by experience and time. If you're expecting an instant benchmark day 1, you'll be disappointed. It doesn't exist.

*takes deep breaths*

No sir. No you can not.

I can look at buff windows. I can look at downtime on cooldowns. I can look at their used rotation. I can see all that wonderful and juicy detail....

But - and this is the crux of the matter here - the number displayed by the dark knight who is doing O10S on savage? It is no help to a scrub teir dark knight just trying to do his best in mendacity gear. Comparing my i360 self to i380 gods is like bragging about bench pressing 120lbs to a professional bodybuilder.

It is if you care to look, but if you're trying to compare dungeons to raids then yes that's a silly endeavor. You can glean basic rotational info and optimizations, but they're 2 entirely different content forms with entirely different circumstances and flows.

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

The people you claim talking about low dps and not taking things into account are players who aren't using an abacus and are relying on feels. As someone with an abacus I've seen countless times where some uneducated player makes a claim about DPS, when they're CLEARLY and UNMISTAKABLY wrong. I always look at gear when I investigate an outlier.

The main context for performance people often use is their own. They judge other people versus their own performance. This is flawed if you don't take gear into consideration. Someone might look bad compared to you but if they're 15 ilvls lower...then no wonder?

15 ilvls would be immediately noticeable by sheer HP difference. 15 ilvls is a lot.

[jameseoakes]

Ironically enough - comments like this are exactly why pro-parser players think people like you are toxic.

.

Thanks I take that as a compliment.

[Penthea]

Also if you actually have the time to watch other players it's because you're not putting max effort in or you're just a considerably better player than I.

I appreciate the compliment but in truth I don't think it's anything special to be able to spot some things without a parser like bad healers from watching hardcasts in the party ui, bad tanks who do things like use less than half of their kit or spam sheild lob, or seeing something isn't right with the buffs or debuffs displayed in the party and target ui. Especially as a healer I'm in an excellent position to watch what other people are doing...given it's actually part of my job to watch other people anyway.

Maybe no one else very active in this thread mains a healer? I'm always keeping an eye on what my co-healer is doing whether it's watching hardcasts, taking note of hots or buffs or their mana bar, because it actually makes me a better team player to do this. For example if I see they have popped cleric stance, well I'll put in a bit more effort into ensuring they don't need to heal so they can get the full use out of that buff. Or if I spot a hot on someone who needs healing but won't take damage again for a while I'll just do something else and let the hot do its work. If their mana is low then I'll pump out more heals so they don't run dry so quickly. I can see what cds the tanks are using as well and adapt my own actions to that. I also watch the arena so if I see something like someone standing in the wrong spot, I'll shield them to decrease the chances of them dying.

A side effect of watching the above is spotting players who are not playing correctly.