How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[KaivaC]

snip

Not sure what warranted my posts being deleted, but *shrug*

It can still be useful, though not relevant because the focus at present is on current endgame. That's how it has always been, to my knowledge. Doesn't mean that it still won't have its uses in below-70 content.

[KaivaC]

snip

When I posted that comment, I really was just checking to see if my deleted posts were a precursor to something else...had not been expecting a large reply, if I could be honest. I don't know about others, but from my experiences, nobody really cares so long as you have some basic competence in stuff like dungeons. From the many players that I have played with, parsing becomes a factor in endgame because what you are doing matters there a lot. With people still pushing towards ilvl400, a single DPS right now can be the difference between clearing and a wipe. For previous SB raids, a good portion of the players that you'll run into doing this content out-gear the fights.

And yes, I'll add some to your ending sentence - while parse tools are nice to see where you are at and how you are doing, I find them useful only when it comes to endgame, because that's where it matters the most, in my opinion. If I didn't raid, I generally would not care about numbers - I'm somewhere around average, maybe slightly less than average, but still competent enough in whatever job I happen to be on at the time.

[RuleofThree]

When I posted that comment, I really was just checking to see if my deleted posts were a precursor to something else...had not been expecting a large reply, if I could be honest. I don't know about others, but from my experiences, nobody really cares so long as you have some basic competence in stuff like dungeons. From the many players that I have played with, parsing becomes a factor in endgame because what you are doing matters there a lot. With people still pushing towards ilvl400, a single DPS right now can be the difference between clearing and a wipe. For previous SB raids, a good portion of the players that you'll run into doing this content out-gear the fights.

And yes, I'll add some to your ending sentence - while parse tools are nice to see where you are at and how you are doing, I find them useful only when it comes to endgame, because that's where it matters the most, in my opinion. If I didn't raid, I generally would not care about numbers - I'm somewhere around average, maybe slightly less than average, but still competent enough in whatever job I happen to be on at the time.

Just to clarify, I don't mean to call you out specifically, I used the term 'you' loosely to include everyone else.

[KaivaC]

Just to clarify, I don't mean to call you out specifically, I used the term 'you' loosely to include everyone else.

Oh I know. No worries.

[Aerlana]

cause it only benefits a small portion of the raiding population.

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

And you can also use old content / "low" content to improve yourself. No need to permanently train in savage content. you are blackmage? A matter of this job is heavy movement fight. you can try to train this in nearly any other content. An example.


Yes, those kind a resultats are only usefull in some content, but you can train in any, you can use parser to help other people.

for the benchmark to know if you need to improve, it is an idea, just have t odo one for each job on each content. (enjoy). It could be a good thing yes. and no one here (i think) is against it. But the parser is a first step before anything else.

[RuleofThree]

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Ok, this thread has established numerous times that trolls will be trolls, parser or not. I am just saying, the trolls will now have access to numbers to fuel their asshatery. I am in no way saying "No parsers cause parser encite trolling." That's not true, I am saying "Parsing will give trolls more fuel." They will troll with or without a parser...this is an agreed upon fact.

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

Once again, people advocating the desire for an official parser are skirting what I am asking: Where are the benchmarks? I can't be more serious. You advocate use of parsers, you want the population to 'git gud,' and yet all you do is throw us a parser, give us no benchmarks to go off of based on gear or level we currently are, and expect us to just 'know how to interpret it all.' I have been bending over backwards, trying to figure out how to improve with my dark knight, despite only playing it for the second tank mount. So much so that I've read this 28 page monstrosity, twice, and despite everything, apparently I'm still bad according to the general populace. I am in full i360 gear, I am not going to pull the dps projected by people in raid gear. Yet, I have no benchmark with which to determine if I am doing the best I can for the gear I have, or if I really am bad.

Where is the benchmark so I can have something to compare my numbers to? Without this, the number I'm looking at after a dungeon is just that...a friggen number! Where is the context? I can't use the data on fflogs, because they are minimum i380...not i360. I can't ask another dark knight, because again, they are in better gear. The best they are going to tell me is 'Just follow rotation. Dark Arts everything when you can, especially for Carve and Spit. Splice in a Hate combo Rotation every now and then when taking a boss outside of tank stance, and always, always use Delerium for Blood weapon, not blood price. Other than that...it's pretty easy.'...

....that doesn't help me with the number I am looking at. Where is the number to compare that tells me if I'm ok, or if I'm far off the norm for my gear? Jesus, you guys promote this parser as a wonderful learning tool....but it's akin to giving a guy a German dictionary, and plopping him in Berlin and saying 'Well, you have the tools! Use them!'

[Shurrikhan]

Jesus, you guys promote this parser as a wonderful learning tool....but it's akin to giving a guy a German dictionary, and plopping him in Berlin and saying 'Well, you have the tools! Use them!'

You know what, I can't wholly disagree with that. At all.

I feel like most times its nearer to a audio-testing pronunciation guide being given before class, but there are certainly less intuitively understandable situations for which we only have the numbers to help and where those numbers feel insufficient for understanding. Which is why I'd like to see more from an official parser, but in the meantime...

FFlogs. The answer is generally fflogs and tools for weighing your own stats before attempting comparisons between yourself and the players (not numbers) you're studying. And knowing your raid DPS buff intervals. (The "context" of DRK dps apart from fight-specific uptime tricks.)

[RuleofThree]

You know what, I can't wholly disagree with that. At all.

I feel like most times its nearer to a audio-testing pronunciation guide being given before class, but there are certainly less intuitively understandable situations for which we only have the numbers to help and where those numbers feel insufficient for understanding. Which is why I'd like to see more from an official parser, but in the meantime...

FFlogs. The answer is generally fflogs and tools for weighing your own stats before attempting comparisons between yourself and the players you're studying. And knowing your raid DPS buff intervals.

I am not suppose to swear on the forums, I think. I think it's one of the reasons I was temp banned from the forums a while back...got so frustrated, it got the best of me...but...

Where is the benchmark so I can have something to compare my numbers to? Without this, the number I'm looking at after a dungeon is just that...a friggen number! Where is the context? I can't use the data on fflogs, because they are minimum i380...not i360. I can't ask another dark knight, because again, they are in better gear. The best they are going to tell me is 'Just follow rotation. Dark Arts everything when you can, especially for Carve and Spit. Splice in a Hate combo Rotation every now and then when taking a boss outside of tank stance, and always, always use Delerium for Blood weapon, not blood price. Other than that...it's pretty easy.'...

j...f....c

I can't be any clearer.

I get that you are not disagreeing, or at least neutral with what I am saying. But you are skirting it as well..it's getting frustrating. I'd make that bold, underlined, and italicized text 64 point size if I could as well, because you clearly missed it.

I. can not. use. fflogs. It will give me an approximation but that is it at best I have no idea if I should be under that number of the i380 geared dark knight by a few hundred, or a few thousand. There is nothing fflogs - a source dedicated to parsing and analyzing current raid content - can give me, for an i360 dark knight that is so fucking tired of being called a bad on a job he is playing for fun.

[Shurrikhan]

I get that you are not disagreeing, or at least neutral with what I am saying. But you are skirting it as well..it's getting frustrating. I'd make that bold, underlined, and italicized text 64 point size if I could as well, because you clearly missed it.

I. can not. use. fflogs. It will give me an approximation but that is it at best I have no idea if I should be under that number of the i380 geared dark knight by a few hundred, or a few thousand. There is nothing fflogs - a source dedicated to parsing and analyzing current raid content - can give me, for an i360 dark knight that is so fucking tired of being called a bad on a job he is playing for fun.

I can't be any clearer.

Okay. And I should have been more clear. Fair enough.

You're very wrong that FFlogs can provide nothing for you. You're entirely wrong that you cannot use them. There is only one thing they cannot provide, which is an easily accessible bank of parses at precisely i360. Its benchmark, however, can still be approximated via trends from 340 to 370 to 380 (yes, the former tiers still exist on FFlogs), as all their lead parses will still equally account for DRK's only buffs since 4.0. You have the appropriate number available to you. Not conveniently, but you have it. And, as I said, you can come up with an even tighter fit estimate by checking your stat weights before drawing the comparison. That's as close an estimate as anyone else can get; crit chance, jump-sync, and compositional factors will often cause more difference than any 10 item levels to perfect play.

Which is why I have to wonder... Why do you need that number? You just mentioned that a "friggen number" is just a "friggen number" without its context. Well, the context has not changed since the earliest-tier parses accessible. The meta has scarcely if at all changed this expansion. DRK balance and raid buff uptime have not changed since, again, the earliest tier lead parses on FFlogs. Rotation, therefore, and all damage-increasing tricks, have not changed. The context is the percentile. Do what they do. Read the context of their raid buffs against their use of Bloodsplitter. Check their TBN usage against their cotank's skill deployment. The number itself does not matter.

You're right; I dismissed certain portions of your post, almost if I hadn't read them. Because you can do the things you claimed impossible, so long as you -- as you yourself suggested -- pay attention to the context. You say FFlogs can't work for you; I can determine then that you're not using them to their fullest.

I wish it was easier. I wish it didn't damn near require FFlogs. But it's possible to do all the things you claim impossible, all because you're comparing numbers alone--or else asking for precision that is simply not possible save across tens of personal and guiding parses each--not their tricks or rotations or synergies that should be guiding you.

In the future, I'll apply bold.

:: Should it be easier to do this analysis? Yes. Should we need an external site for it? No. But for we now we do need it, but it can technically do all those things you're requesting.

[Penthea]

Yet, I have no benchmark with which to determine if I am doing the best I can for the gear I have, or if I really am bad.'

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

The main context for performance people often use is their own. They judge other people versus their own performance. This is flawed if you don't take gear into consideration. Someone might look bad compared to you but if they're 15 ilvls lower...then no wonder?

People reading this post will likely think "but of course I look at their gear, anyone would" and great if they do, but my time in WoW taught me that it is very common for people to not take gear into consideration.

Of course someone doing great dps in bad gear doesn't mean they do enough dps for the fight. In that case if you remove them you can just say to them "sorry your gear isn't good enough for this fight". But if someone only looked at their numbers and didn't bother checking the gear may instead say "learn to play your class properly" and this is where arguments can start. The player about to get kicked may be aware they have good numbers for their gear and of course they would usually try to defend this. Or even worse the person isn't aware that only gear is holding them back and they may end up feeling that max lvl content is out of their reach and might respond with comments relating to elitism against beginners.

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.