How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Daibunnie]

Yea they give you the barest of bones in this game but that isn't enough for ex and savage which we agree needs to change. The difference being I guess you think a parser is the answer. I don't think so as this game even at the highest levels doesn't really need that much detail to kill anything again unless your speed running or testing theories.

Don't see how you reached that conclusion when 95% of the community never even cleared any savage content, let alone ultimate. Again, the parser shows how many times you used a specific skill, which itself can give a general idea of what a person is doing. If you're a pld at o11s, your only combo should not be just the halone combo and spamming shield lob. Nor should you be spamming cure 1 142 times at The Burn as a whm. The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser.

[Penthea]

If you're a pld at o11s, your only combo should not be just the halone combo and spamming shield lob. Nor should you be spamming cure 1 142 times at The Burn as a whm. The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser.

To be fair you can easily catch a lot of stuff like that just from watching the players and your ui.

If you know a class you'll recognise skill animations, especially anything flashy. You can see on the enemy targets if they're missing dots or debuffs they normally should have with the current classes in the fight. You can see on your own buffs if you're lacking a party buff that should be there. You can look at the party ui to see if the tank uses defensive cds. It's especially easy to see what a caster is doing because you can see hardcasts in the party ui. You don't need a parser to see if the whm is spamming cure 1.

Of course having a parser makes it easier to spot these things in a more indepth manner, and it can show you things you maybe didn't see at the time. But let's not suggest that parsers are the only way of seeing whether someone is pressing the right buttons or not, because that is simply not true.

[Daibunnie]

To be fair you can easily catch a lot of stuff like that just from watching the players and your ui.

If you know a class you'll recognise skill animations, especially anything flashy. You can see on the enemy targets if they're missing dots or debuffs they normally should have with the current classes in the fight. You can see on your own buffs if you're lacking a party buff that should be there. You can look at the party ui to see if the tank uses defensive cds. It's especially easy to see what a caster is doing because you can see hardcasts in the party ui. You don't need a parser to see if the whm is spamming cure 1.

Of course having a parser makes it easier to spot these things in a more indepth manner, and it can show you things you maybe didn't see at the time. But let's not suggest that parsers are the only way of seeing whether someone is pressing the right buttons or not, because that is simply not true.

I don't see how you're going to catch all that while fighting anything in savage as well as how much dps each player did. Several people also have special effects from other players turned off to prevent fps drops mid fight. Also, you shouldn't have to be monitoring every single player at this level of content when they're expected to at least know how to play their class. And you're right, you don't need a parser to see a whm cast cure 1 once, but it will point out that the whm casted cure 1 way more than average while cure 2 is under 10 uses.

No one is suggesting that a parser is the only way to see if someone is playing correctly, but its an easy solution to get players to understand what they're doing wrong from the start without taking any risks or wasting time, because in the end, most people don't want to teach a player how to play their class during savage and would rather just kick and replace them.

[Penthea]

No one is suggesting that a parser is the only way to see if someone is playing correctly

You'll find that in the below quote from your previous post you did exactly that. Perhaps this isn't what you meant, but this is how it appears.

If you're a pld at o11s, your only combo should not be just the halone combo and spamming shield lob. Nor should you be spamming cure 1 142 times at The Burn as a whm. The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser.

I don't see how you're going to catch all that while fighting anything in savage as well as how much dps each player did.

No of course you will not catch every single thing, especially in savage as sometimes your attention is demanded so much that you can't keep watching every combat detail that is presented to you. I even said parsers make it easier to access this information. I was merely correcting you when you said the only reason people know that someone did something wrong is because they could see it in a parser, and I was stating examples of how you can see poor performance without one.

but its an easy solution to get players to understand what they're doing wrong from the start without taking any risks or wasting time, because in the end, most people don't want to teach a player how to play their class during savage and would rather just kick and replace them.

I completely agree that parsers are an easy solution to get more indepth combat information. While a lot can be spotted from personal observational skills and experience, a lot of what players do wrong is sometimes too subtle to see in the heat of battle or you simply haven't the time to look. But this doesn't change that you can spot quite a lot on your own. Very often if someone is really bad at the game it will be obvious without a parser.

[Daibunnie]

You'll find that in the below quote from your previous post you did exactly that. Perhaps this isn't what you meant, but this is how it appears.

No of course you will not catch every single thing, especially in savage as sometimes your attention is demanded so much that you can't keep watching every combat detail that is presented to you. I even said parsers make it easier to access this information. I was merely correcting you when you said the only reason people know that someone did something wrong is because they could see it in a parser, and I was stating examples of how you can see poor performance without one.

Not sure what your point is or what you're "correcting". Regardless, only the people that were in that instance knows what the pld did. Everyone else can only look at the log and judge what happened, assuming there isn't any video of it. Same situation with the whm, it's difficult to make an accurate critique of what went wrong but the overuse of cure 1 and almost no usage of cure 2 shows that the whm spent most of their time healing in small amounts.

I completely agree that parsers are an easy solution to get more indepth combat information. While a lot can be spotted from personal observational skills and experience, a lot of what players do wrong is sometimes too subtle to see in the heat of battle or you simply haven't the time to look. But this doesn't change that you can spot quite a lot on your own. Very often if someone is really bad at the game it will be obvious without a parser.

Are you talking about randoms from df or a party attempting savage? Other than specific situations like someone failing a mechanic or the party keeps hitting enrage, most players won't notice what every individual is doing during any savage content because they are expecting everyone to somewhat know what they're doing instead of having to keep watch.

[Penthea]

Not sure what your point is or what you're "correcting".

The part where you said "The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser." when you were stating some types of bad performance that could easily be spotted without a parser.

Regardless, only the people that were in that instance knows what the pld did. Everyone else can only look at the log and judge what happened, assuming there isn't any video of it. Same situation with the whm, it's difficult to make an accurate critique of what went wrong but the overuse of cure 1 and almost no usage of cure 2 shows that the whm spent most of their time healing in small amounts.

Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam, and the whm spammed cure 1. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation. You only need to look at the party ui to not only see the cure 1 spam but also the most likely very poor state of party hp.

Are you talking about randoms from df or a party attempting savage? Other than specific situations like someone failing a mechanic or the party keeps hitting enrage, most players won't notice what every individual is doing during any savage content because they are expecting everyone to somewhat know what they're doing instead of having to keep watch.

I'm talking in general. As a healer I'm always looking at the party ui so I can spot a lot of things pretty quickly such lack of buffs, lack of or poorly timed defensive cds, poor or incorrect choice in hardcasts, etc. The tanks in my fc can spot bad tanks super fast just by watching their skill animations. You might find it hard to believe but you can actually see visual signs of people not understanding their class without a parser.

I always pay attention to what my co-healer is doing as well, especially in pugs because some really don't know what they're doing. Maybe I'm weird for this but I'd rather try to carry a less skilled healer and try to get a kill, than waste time wiping because I didn't bother to adjust to the situation by ignoring what the party ui can tell me about them. And yes this does include savage in the rare times when we need to pug a healer.

Personally I feel parsers truly shine when people are trying to get the most out of their class or team. The results of small changes in stat weights, openers, alignment of party buffs, etc, can be incredibly difficult and often near-impossible to track adequately without a parser or fflogs. You can to some degree see changes with your own eyes but without a parser you can't see if a particular use of skills worked better on that pull because it is better or because the players were very lucky with crits and dh. To get the real truth from this you need something like a parser or fflogs.

[Daibunnie]

The part where you said "The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser." when you were stating some types of bad performance that could easily be spotted without a parser.


Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam, and the whm spammed cure 1. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation. You only need to look at the party ui to not only see the cure 1 spam but also the most likely very poor state of party hp.

Both of those examples were gotten from someone posting the logs of those individuals. The pld spamming shield lob was gotten from another persons ranting which matched up with what the log displayed. And unless you're actually in that instance with that player, yes, it is difficult to judge what happened just by someone's story.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

To be fair you can easily catch a lot of stuff like that just from watching the players and your ui.

If you know a class you'll recognise skill animations, especially anything flashy. You can see on the enemy targets if they're missing dots or debuffs they normally should have with the current classes in the fight. You can see on your own buffs if you're lacking a party buff that should be there. You can look at the party ui to see if the tank uses defensive cds. It's especially easy to see what a caster is doing because you can see hardcasts in the party ui. You don't need a parser to see if the whm is spamming cure 1.

Of course having a parser makes it easier to spot these things in a more indepth manner, and it can show you things you maybe didn't see at the time. But let's not suggest that parsers are the only way of seeing whether someone is pressing the right buttons or not, because that is simply not true.

Give this a try in Savage. You're almost guaranteed to mess up yourself or get killed because things happen quickly enough you aren't going to catch everything unless it's blatantly obvious. Furthermore, most people don't have intimate knowledge of jobs they don't consistently play nor should they. I only need to know the basics of Black Mage and that it can deal upwards of 7,000 DPS. I won't be able to tell said Black Mage is doing 4,500 DPS as I'll only notice the boss taking much longer to die or we're seeing a mechanic we could otherwise phase. A parse highlights precise who is holding the group back. Depending on the group, they may be able and/or willing to offer some advice, but that shouldn't be expected in a farm party where you're expected to know the fight and your rotation.