How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[HyoMinPark]

So I've been thinking about this alot, reading other posts in here and the like, and one thing kept being brought up that no one seems to question: A tool for parsing can be used as a learning tool. I agree, as a whole, I mean, you'd have to come up with some compelling argument to try to say that information - no matter how it was gotten - (in this case parsing) isn't useful in some way to help better yourself. The problem I am having is this: how is it a learning tool? I mean yea, it has the numbers, but the numbers mean nothing when left by their own. I did some looking around on fflogs (as well as I could anyway, I don't know anyone specifically to look up, and evidently I have nothing logged on there) to see if I can find something...but came up short.

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad? What is the benchmark for dps for a dps in iLevel 180 gear? A tank in iLevel 260 gear? I can see how that would be useful, cause then I can take my numbers and put it to a benchmark...but as it stands now..I see nothing...just a bunch of useless numbers that people in current gear doing current content are proud to have public. If this parsing tool was to be official and public for all...well...not everyone is 70th level in alpha savage gear.

Not everyone participating in Savage is full i400 in full Savage gear either; the tier just started.

A parser has to be used in conjunction with another analysis tool in order for someone to effectively learn with it (outside of seeing their numbers compared to other similarly geared individuals and thinking “that seems kind of low... I wonder why”). You also have to be able to read and understand the data within FFLogs to understand what it’s trying to tell you, as well as have the motivation and open-mindedness to improve.

FFLogs is just one example, but there’s a new xivanalysis tool that was developed by people to specifically address optimization for specific jobs, and it’s used in conjunction with a parser and an upload to FFLogs. I was toying around with it last night actually, looking at my groups weekly Chaos clear. Sadly, BRD is currently not supported, but every other job we had was (PLD, WAR, MNK, DRG, MCH, SCH, AST).

For each one, it provided a checklist of things one should look out for with regards to optimizing rotations: for example, the PLD analysis addressed how many FoF windows only had 0~1 Goring Blade applications within their window as opposed to 2 applications, which is what one should aim for; it also had information about Holy Spirit usage. AST has checklists for the amount of Draws/Sleeve Draws they missed within the encounter. DRG has Blood of the Dragon uptime analysis, and Nastrond optimization.

All jobs have a standard timeline mapping out the skills they used (and showing when they overlap with raid buffs or when they come off cooldown), and they also address things like triple-weaving, and tell you exactly where you weaved and what you weaved; that is along with a message stating to avoid weaving more than 2 oGCDs within a GCD window.

With regards to DPS per item level, there is currently no way to determine this save for historical data, which in and of itself will probably not always be that accurate. These first few weeks are when most raiders are in i380 crafter/normal mode gear, so they could be used as a benchmark for i380. But this will skew in the future because statics/individuals that progress faster will gear up faster (provided RNG is kind to them with drop), widening the gap between i380 and i400.

What would be useful would be if FFLogs would consider things like your current gear with regards to rankings, but that is not a function it currently offers, and I am not sure how the developers of the site would go about implementing it. It is not something that I am against, but it is also not something I have an easy answer to with regards to implementation.

I also think that FFLogs should go back to filtering out DPS with Balance and DPS without Balance like they had in Creator back when Balance was +20% for a naked one, +10% for AOE, and +30% for Enhanced. That way you get more of a raw number, and not a Balance-fed number—even though it fairly easy to tell when someone was fed Balances if you know where to look for the information. At that point, you can use the rDPS calculator to determine how much damage Balance gave them, and subtract that from their total DPS to find out what their actual damage would be like sans Balance feeding.

[RuleofThree]

With regards to DPS per item level, there is currently no way to determine this save for historical data, which in and of itself will probably not always be that accurate. These first few weeks are when most raiders are in i380 crafter/normal mode gear, so they could be used as a benchmark for i380. But this will skew in the future because statics/individuals that progress faster will gear up faster (provided RNG is kind to them with drop), widening the gap between i380 and i400.

SO what you guys are telling me is that unless you are in relatively current gear, you are forced to assume your results are ok, based upon rotations and similar data? There is no hard and fast data that suggests 'ok, based on this sample in 3.0 24-man raids, it looks like a person in best gear at the time, can push out 'x' dps. Currently, in same iLevel gear, I'm pushing out 'y' dps. I wonder what I'm doing wrong for the gear and skills available to me at my level

...you are forced to guess?

I mean. I guess I could go out and put on iLevel180 gear as a dps, run a dungeon appropriate for that iLevel range, and see what I get? But again, how do I know that the number I got is accurate, if I have no sample data to base it off of?

[HyoMinPark]

SO what you guys are telling me is that unless you are in relatively current gear, you are forced to assume your results are ok, based upon rotations and similar data? There is no hard and fast data that suggests 'ok, based on this sample in 3.0 24-man raids, it looks like a person in best gear at the time, can push out 'x' dps. Currently, in same iLevel gear, I'm pushing out 'y' dps. I wonder what I'm doing wrong for the gear and skills available to me at my level

...you are forced to guess?

I mean. I guess I could go out and put on iLevel180 gear as a dps, run a dungeon appropriate for that iLevel range, and see what I get? But again, how do I know that the number I got is accurate, if I have no sample data to base it off of?

If you consistently parse content and take note of your own gear or the gear of others, you can very easily tell when someone is falling behind. But that comes with familiarizing yourself with DPS trends. If you have a BLM in i370, they should be pushing 6,000 DPS easily, even breaking 7,000. If they’re at 4,000 though? That’s way too low. A BRD in i370 should be pushing 5,500 minimum; breaking 6,000 if they’re really good (and have the appropriate comp).

i180 is going to be skewed now since that’s from the previous expansion, all previous expansion content has been nerfed, and a lot of jobs do not have the same 60 rotation that they did in Heavensward. But we aren’t talking about damage in i180/level 60. We’re talking about the damage people should have in current Extremes and Savage content, which is level 70, i360/i370 minimum, and i380 is currently “standard” since not enough people have upgraded to i400 (the current cap).

I understand wanting benchmarks, but it doesn’t take much to see when someone is falling behind based on the gear they are wearing if you know what to look for.

[RuleofThree]

If you consistently parse content and take note of your own gear or the gear of others, you can very easily tell when someone is falling behind. But that comes with familiarizing yourself with DPS trends. If you have a BLM in i370, they should be pushing 6,000 DPS easily, even breaking 7,000. If they’re at 4,000 though? That’s way too low. A BRD in i370 should be pushing 5,500 minimum; breaking 6,000 if they’re really good (and have the appropriate comp).

i180 is going to be skewed now since that’s from the previous expansion, all previous expansion content has been nerfed, and a lot of jobs do not have the same 60 rotation that they did in Heavensward. But we aren’t talking about damage in i180/level 60. We’re talking about the damage people should have in current Extremes and Savage content, which is level 70, i360/i370 minimum, and i380 is currently “standard” since not enough people have upgraded to i400 (the current cap).

I understand wanting benchmarks, but it doesn’t take much to see when someone is falling behind based on the gear they are wearing if you know what to look for.

So while an official parcer in the game would undoubtably be a good 'learning tool.' It would be only for current content. The moment it becomes outdated content, no one cares anymore. While that may be useful for the modern raider, or for someone that is level 70 looking to get in to raiding...it's not useful at all for the person currently leveling. He gets to look at his dps in Say...Void Ark, and just assume it is good at this point in time, or go with what appearantly is being suggested, and not care until it is relevant...at level 70.

Seems to me if you want to advocate using a parser as an official learning tool...it should be useful for all levels not just current savage or extremes. Granted, I'm sure only the elitest of the elite care what dps output is at level 45, but I'd say by Alexander Savage - and the iLevel there about - having benchmarks that say 'alright, in around this iLevel area, 'x' job should be pushing around 3,000dps.' This way you are knowing whether or not the best you can be at that iLevel rather than just hoping you are doing it right, and checking when you are 70.

[KaivaC]

snip

Not sure what warranted my posts being deleted, but *shrug*

It can still be useful, though not relevant because the focus at present is on current endgame. That's how it has always been, to my knowledge. Doesn't mean that it still won't have its uses in below-70 content.

[KaivaC]

snip

When I posted that comment, I really was just checking to see if my deleted posts were a precursor to something else...had not been expecting a large reply, if I could be honest. I don't know about others, but from my experiences, nobody really cares so long as you have some basic competence in stuff like dungeons. From the many players that I have played with, parsing becomes a factor in endgame because what you are doing matters there a lot. With people still pushing towards ilvl400, a single DPS right now can be the difference between clearing and a wipe. For previous SB raids, a good portion of the players that you'll run into doing this content out-gear the fights.

And yes, I'll add some to your ending sentence - while parse tools are nice to see where you are at and how you are doing, I find them useful only when it comes to endgame, because that's where it matters the most, in my opinion. If I didn't raid, I generally would not care about numbers - I'm somewhere around average, maybe slightly less than average, but still competent enough in whatever job I happen to be on at the time.

[RuleofThree]

When I posted that comment, I really was just checking to see if my deleted posts were a precursor to something else...had not been expecting a large reply, if I could be honest. I don't know about others, but from my experiences, nobody really cares so long as you have some basic competence in stuff like dungeons. From the many players that I have played with, parsing becomes a factor in endgame because what you are doing matters there a lot. With people still pushing towards ilvl400, a single DPS right now can be the difference between clearing and a wipe. For previous SB raids, a good portion of the players that you'll run into doing this content out-gear the fights.

And yes, I'll add some to your ending sentence - while parse tools are nice to see where you are at and how you are doing, I find them useful only when it comes to endgame, because that's where it matters the most, in my opinion. If I didn't raid, I generally would not care about numbers - I'm somewhere around average, maybe slightly less than average, but still competent enough in whatever job I happen to be on at the time.

Just to clarify, I don't mean to call you out specifically, I used the term 'you' loosely to include everyone else.

[Aerlana]

cause it only benefits a small portion of the raiding population.

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

And you can also use old content / "low" content to improve yourself. No need to permanently train in savage content. you are blackmage? A matter of this job is heavy movement fight. you can try to train this in nearly any other content. An example.


Yes, those kind a resultats are only usefull in some content, but you can train in any, you can use parser to help other people.

for the benchmark to know if you need to improve, it is an idea, just have t odo one for each job on each content. (enjoy). It could be a good thing yes. and no one here (i think) is against it. But the parser is a first step before anything else.

[RuleofThree]

Anyone who wants decently farm the current primal will have a good use of it to improve himself, and so help to get faster clear, so need less time to do 99 kills (just to say, 30 second win => 49,5 minutes in the end ! nearly 1 hour)

But, the parser is usefull with this and not really usefull for lower content, it is right yes. But except healers that doesnt want to DPS (so slack 66% of their time) and this kind of matters, there wont be any matter due to "parsing" people dont need parsers to insult and be mean to other in small content. a pack a little big where the tank dies, sometime "ok, it may happens" sometime, lets insult tank to not have good use of his CD or the healer to not heal enough. With or without parser behind this. And for the "slacker" no need parser to see this...
And, with or without parser, if it comes to insult, just, no reason. temporary ban, or even perma if the guy did it too much time (after 4-5 temprary ban, lets say him good bye forever)

Ok, this thread has established numerous times that trolls will be trolls, parser or not. I am just saying, the trolls will now have access to numbers to fuel their asshatery. I am in no way saying "No parsers cause parser encite trolling." That's not true, I am saying "Parsing will give trolls more fuel." They will troll with or without a parser...this is an agreed upon fact.

Also, parser is a really good way to give some fast help in "low content" (not xtrem primals / savage) to the "sprout" (or any guy learning the game).
Even in daily dongeon, i could see people trying to do well, but had a clearly lack of damages. when it is so clear, no need to read 1hour of the logs... just see the list of skills and how much, and will be ok. then you can give 1, 2 or more fast hint to be a begin to his own improvment. "oh, hey black mage, i see you dont use a lot "szcathe" spell when moving". Or any kind of advice, yes, it can be seen in guide but some people in those content dont read them. and i prefer getting a direct advice than "your DPS is not so good, should read this guide"

Once again, people advocating the desire for an official parser are skirting what I am asking: Where are the benchmarks? I can't be more serious. You advocate use of parsers, you want the population to 'git gud,' and yet all you do is throw us a parser, give us no benchmarks to go off of based on gear or level we currently are, and expect us to just 'know how to interpret it all.' I have been bending over backwards, trying to figure out how to improve with my dark knight, despite only playing it for the second tank mount. So much so that I've read this 28 page monstrosity, twice, and despite everything, apparently I'm still bad according to the general populace. I am in full i360 gear, I am not going to pull the dps projected by people in raid gear. Yet, I have no benchmark with which to determine if I am doing the best I can for the gear I have, or if I really am bad.

Where is the benchmark so I can have something to compare my numbers to? Without this, the number I'm looking at after a dungeon is just that...a friggen number! Where is the context? I can't use the data on fflogs, because they are minimum i380...not i360. I can't ask another dark knight, because again, they are in better gear. The best they are going to tell me is 'Just follow rotation. Dark Arts everything when you can, especially for Carve and Spit. Splice in a Hate combo Rotation every now and then when taking a boss outside of tank stance, and always, always use Delerium for Blood weapon, not blood price. Other than that...it's pretty easy.'...

....that doesn't help me with the number I am looking at. Where is the number to compare that tells me if I'm ok, or if I'm far off the norm for my gear? Jesus, you guys promote this parser as a wonderful learning tool....but it's akin to giving a guy a German dictionary, and plopping him in Berlin and saying 'Well, you have the tools! Use them!'