How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[thegreatonemal]

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide. Therefore, an official parse or allowing us to openly discuss parses in-game wouldn't change anything at all. Not when it comes to exclusion.



As stated above, PS4 players have no access to parses. Considering a sizable portion of the playerbase plays on PS4, they're entirely reliant on someone else to see their damage. Furthermore, we aren't allowed to discuss parses openly without fear of getting our accounts banned. Whether to remove players who have no business joining clear/farm parties or explain how someone might improve, we can't do anything except silently kick. The sheer amount of people who are shocked when I tell them how much more damage they could be doing is baffling. A good amount of people don't even realize they're doing anything wrong.

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

[SenorPatty]

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

The issue is people muddle harassment for everything. You have people in this thread, other parser topic threads and even tales of df that have claimed being kicked silently is harassment. It really wouldn't surprise me if those same people even went as far as reporting the party leader or other people in the party because they felt like it was harassment.

SE's strict on harassment in everything. Even if an official parser were to drop tommorow, that would not change. But you know what else wouldn't change? Their stance on playstyle differences. If people fearing parsers because now people can openly speak in a civil or neutral manner with facts about why they're getting booted, then that's on them because they're the ones mixing up legit harassment and playstyle differences.

This is the common thread I see with anti-parsers: they want to play however they like, they don't want to be excluded from content they clearly cannot do, they don't want to be told where they're messing up and they don't want to give people the choice to disband.

All this because facts would actually validate other people's reasons for kicking whereas the absence of those facts gives them leeway to act like they're not the problem.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

Find me a single post in this entire thread endorsing harassment. I'll wait.

Excluding players who do not mean the group's expectations isn't harassment nor am I obligated to help you clear. Your assumption it will happen with more regularity is simply that: an assumption. I disagree. Now we're an impasse, except I can fall back on parsers already existing and they aren't causing the problems you claim.

Frankly, they should do both. But at least a parse allows people to see the end result, especially those on PS4 who have to rely on someone else to see if they're improving.

[thegreatonemal]

Find me a single post in this entire thread endorsing harassment. I'll wait.

Excluding players who do not mean the group's expectations isn't harassment nor am I obligated to help you clear. Your assumption it will happen with more regularity is simply that: an assumption. I disagree. Now we're an impasse, except I can fall back on parsers already existing and they aren't causing the problems you claim.

Frankly, they should do both. But at least a parse allows people to see the end result, especially those on PS4 who have to rely on someone else to see if they're improving.

Umm no one said or implied that so what?
The group most people don't vote to kick people in a pf environment party leader says replacing they back out and the party leader kicks someone or multiple people. Compare your parase to how people treat K/D in FPS games it be the same kinds of toxic stuff gms might not be able to keep up with all the claims. So no, not an assumption just a trend that happens in lots of games with rankings in any kind of way allowing an official parse allows that ranking and opens the door to all of that. We could argue about this all day but I'd rather not.

Being on ps4 I know the issues it causes for my own personal improvement of not being able to parse myself and being at the mercy of a pc player who treats his logs as a highlight reel instead of a more accurate representation on your gradual improvement. for all of the logs i have I've probably done better and worse but because i'm on ps4 I can't know for sure. annoying to be sure. But the way this game is setup my own desire to test the micro improvements to my rotation are pointless the boss still died at the same time and we got the loot. The negatives outweigh the positives

[Aerlana]

*snip*

If you have not been kicked, at least you know you did a good job. good enough for what we waited from you. Simply. Kicking is not a random thing.

But... when i read the first part of your message. You clearly says than seeing and doing things depending of people performance is bad in a system where you can choose with who you play?
So lets randomize all team in all game for everything. When you see the top team of league of legend, or counterstrike in the annual championship. they do select people, they throw away deadweight...

on OW when a game finished, you can choose between staying with the same people, or let the game choose your new teammate. With what you says, it is toxic to click "no" if you consider them bad... right?

[thegreatonemal]

If you have not been kicked, at least you know you did a good job. good enough for what we waited from you. Simply. Kicking is not a random thing.

But... when i read the first part of your message. You clearly says than seeing and doing things depending of people performance is bad in a system where you can choose with who you play?
So lets randomize all team in all game for everything. When you see the top team of league of legend, or counterstrike in the annual championship. they do select people, they throw away deadweight...

on OW when a game finished, you can choose between staying with the same people, or let the game choose your new teammate. With what you says, it is toxic to click "no" if you consider them bad... right?

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.

[Daibunnie]

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.

The current parser can list how well each player performed as a percentile. A dps doing only 6% of the boss' hp as opposed to the 2 healers who did 10% each, is easily unacceptable and warrants a kick if anyone notices. Most people won't care as long as they clear yes, but that dps was the one who the party had to carry the entire fight.

[Aerlana]

*snip*

Yes, watching logs for example. logs not only show "the top players" you can see the DPS at the 75 percentil. it is the DPS where 25% people are doing more, and 75% are doing less.
Right now, if i watch on FFlogs for O9S, the DPS of the 75th percentil is from 5900 (ninja) to 6900 (samurai).
Now, lets go to O9S savage, mechanics are done well, but third try, third wipe on enrage. you see your parser, and find a samurai with 4k5 DPS... Yes he is bad. Now here is the deal
1) i says him to move his ass and get better DPS => toxic because i want him to play better
2) i kick him to take a new melee that will do enough damages => toxic because i kick
3) i stay with him, without saying anything, hoping a miracle.
4) disband

You want the 3, you choice. Me i prefer first saying him he has to be better, and if it doesnt show any improvement, sadly ill kick him...



Now for farms situation same logic. i go watch the 75th percentil because i want to farm fast. (so get some quite fast clear) DPS are from 5k to 5k8. if i find the kills quite slow, and see a guy at 4k...


FUN FACT : no need to FFlogs most of time to see there is a matter... i never used worldoflogs (or warcraftlogs now) to know it when i was raid lead.
Just, i see some people really far behind... like a healer doing half the work the others are doing. or a DPS doing far less than any other. Rarely i had situation where i had doubt and had to mind about strength/weakness of the class on this fight.
And parsers not only show DPS/HPS. damages receive, number of dispells (more fight ask it in WoW) number of interrupt cast, overhealing. The wow parser i have also show me how muchthis heal did get mana back during fight (helping to understand why he is so low than the others... easier to give him advices). With just one fight, you can get numerous information about playstyle when you take the time to read it fully... To kick people that dont have their spot in THIS party. and also seeing any matter to give advice !

When anyone create a party, HE decides the rules. if he decides to get only elite people, over the 90th percentil, or really open minded and take anyone over the 25th percentil, it is his matter.
Where is the toxicity there? because i am not enough openminded to carry anyone thru the farm or in the savage content? It is this the "toxicity" you fear about official parser?

[thegreatonemal]

Yes, watching logs for example. logs not only show "the top players" you can see the DPS at the 75 percentil. it is the DPS where 25% people are doing more, and 75% are doing less.
Right now, if i watch on FFlogs for O9S, the DPS of the 75th percentil is from 5900 (ninja) to 6900 (samurai).
Now, lets go to O9S savage, mechanics are done well, but third try, third wipe on enrage. you see your parser, and find a samurai with 4k5 DPS... Yes he is bad. Now here is the deal
1) i says him to move his ass and get better DPS => toxic because i want him to play better
2) i kick him to take a new melee that will do enough damages => toxic because i kick
3) i stay with him, without saying anything, hoping a miracle.
4) disband

You want the 3, you choice. Me i prefer first saying him he has to be better, and if it doesnt show any improvement, sadly ill kick him...



Now for farms situation same logic. i go watch the 75th percentil because i want to farm fast. (so get some quite fast clear) DPS are from 5k to 5k8. if i find the kills quite slow, and see a guy at 4k...


FUN FACT : no need to FFlogs most of time to see there is a matter... i never used worldoflogs (or warcraftlogs now) to know it when i was raid lead.
Just, i see some people really far behind... like a healer doing half the work the others are doing. or a DPS doing far less than any other. Rarely i had situation where i had doubt and had to mind about strength/weakness of the class on this fight.


When anyone create a party, HE decides the rules. if he decides to get only elite people, over the 90th percentil, or really open minded and take anyone over the 25th percentil, it is his matter.
Where is the toxicity there? because i am not enough openminded to carry anyone thru the farm or in the savage content? It is this the "toxicity" you fear about official parser?

None of that matters, those logs are based on whoever has logs not every player of the class or what is the limit that class can do in any given fight. Its already biased that 4.9k isn't dead weight you needed it to clear the fight unless you think your pumping out enough damage to clear current content with a dps dead on the floor the entire time.

That said kicking people because they don't meet your standards in not the problem nor what anyone was talking about its how you do it. Most of people are not gonna be like "hey your damage is too low we want faster kills bye" Most are gonna be "lol trash sam with 4.5k dps learn your rotation insult x y and z." will all of them be like those two examples no of course not but those will increase. People already do these but they hardly say it to the persons face they just say it to their fcs and linkshells. this games community kinda runs on hear no evil see no evil and you and others don't do it openly because of the very real chance you get banned for a few days. That's the toxicity people in this thread are referring too.

[Ameela]

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.

Sell runs are literally just 7 people carrying an 8th party member that's dead weight, most even kill themselves before the fight starts.
Yes the boss reached 0 HP but the other members had to make up for the slacking party member, if all party members were equally slacking they wouldn't clear.