How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[SleepyNeko]

And the players using it to be toxic can be reported and reprimanded just like they can now. As far as being exclusionary due to more availability...as it stands now there's 100% availability on all the logs people care about. So what would be the actual change here?

Well the "silently" excluding people cannot be reported. You can argue that people are doing it already but it is still true that having an official parser will "promote" more people to use it leading this scenario to occur more often.

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

[Sigma-Astra]

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

If a player has shown consistently that they're under-performing over and over again, literally holding back the group from a clear or from finishing whatever piece of content that they're working on, and they also refuse or just completely ignore on improving and good advice; I'm not entirely sure how that's considered toxic to simply bench them.

It's rude to expect other players to hold your hand, carry, or coddle you when their own time is just as important as your own. I'm not sure why others expect everyone else to put in double the effort when they can't even put 25% in sometimes.

You bench football or sports players that are not performing to the team's and coach's standards (players who make a lot of fouls or mistakes), I'm not sure why we can't hold those same standards and expectations in an MMO which is not only a competitive game, but also a team effort.

[SleepyNeko]

I don't know how to quote multiple comments so please forgive me for the lack of context.

I think there are too many scenarios and variables on this issue for my single line comment to be correct, so here are some of the things I have in mind about this in general:

When I said "under performing" in quotes I meant it in a relative sense, I was mainly alluring to the players that have enough numbers for the content but are not as high as other, better performing players.
I didn't mention savage content, but obviously the amount of skill gating on content by players depends on the difficulty of the content.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

[Dualgunner]

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

[SleepyNeko]

We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

Yes, but not everyone is on FFlogs, the more people that parse, the more people will unwillingly be put on FFlogs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yes, but not everyone is on FFlogs, the more people that parse, the more people will unwillingly be put on FFlogs.

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide. Therefore, an official parse or allowing us to openly discuss parses in-game wouldn't change anything at all. Not when it comes to exclusion.

On topic: I'm not against using parser for yourself to help improve your performance, but as many others have pointed out, all the people who wishes to use parsers already use them, so what benefits do we gain by making an official one?

As stated above, PS4 players have no access to parses. Considering a sizable portion of the playerbase plays on PS4, they're entirely reliant on someone else to see their damage. Furthermore, we aren't allowed to discuss parses openly without fear of getting our accounts banned. Whether to remove players who have no business joining clear/farm parties or explain how someone might improve, we can't do anything except silently kick. The sheer amount of people who are shocked when I tell them how much more damage they could be doing is baffling. A good amount of people don't even realize they're doing anything wrong.

[jameseoakes]

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide.

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

[thegreatonemal]

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide. Therefore, an official parse or allowing us to openly discuss parses in-game wouldn't change anything at all. Not when it comes to exclusion.



As stated above, PS4 players have no access to parses. Considering a sizable portion of the playerbase plays on PS4, they're entirely reliant on someone else to see their damage. Furthermore, we aren't allowed to discuss parses openly without fear of getting our accounts banned. Whether to remove players who have no business joining clear/farm parties or explain how someone might improve, we can't do anything except silently kick. The sheer amount of people who are shocked when I tell them how much more damage they could be doing is baffling. A good amount of people don't even realize they're doing anything wrong.

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

[Daibunnie]

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

In NA, players are dropped when they're the ones holding back the party. Parties will disband when multiple people are failing especially when its a farm party. And there's always a reason why the party keeps failing, with it usually being players not knowing the mechanics, not knowing how to play their class, or their lack of coordination. The only thing an official parse will do, is atleast help those who have no idea what they're doing and point out what they're doing wrong instead of being carried along from the start. The worst being gating those kinds of people from parties that they have no place in at all.

[SleepyNeko]

In NA, players are dropped when they're the ones holding back the party. Parties will disband when multiple people are failing especially when its a farm party. And there's always a reason why the party keeps failing, with it usually being players not knowing the mechanics, not knowing how to play their class, or their lack of coordination. The only thing an official parse will do, is atleast help those who have no idea what they're doing and point out what they're doing wrong instead of being carried along from the start. The worst being gating those kinds of people from parties that they have no place in at all.

How are practice parties or first time clear parties treated in NA? Do players get kicked immediately before the raid even starts because they are vetted through FFlogs?

I agree there should be some performance expectations on farm groups.