How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Yshnal]

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

[Jijifli]

Snip

Focusing on the "Mechanics" part of this. I do know that it can track things like what did damage when, and what killed and when. I had a case where I got a poorly uploaded spot for o6s, saying I did about 10th percentile (gray, real bad).

I checked it, it showed I was dead for around 25% of the fight (the last quarter) and I died to the tether. It also showed I got a lack of raises, and more to the point, showed the WHM was doing everything while the AST showed to do little (they actually dc'd). It also showed that the WAR got a debuff from the mechanic that killed me, meaning they were too close to the BLM in the back.

Using this "toxic system", I was able to see and conclude why a dps number might be poor, and see what can be improved. If someone is just too focused on dps that they fail mechs, you're either going to notice, or, for some cases, you can see what killed whom.

[Shurrikhan]

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

They allegedly balance around near-optimal play, albeit at minimum ilvl and originally without healer sustained DPS accounted for, already...

Moreover, I think you're considering the wrong need here. One doesn't need a calculator to do math, but would you want to calculate for a 200x10 table without Excel? Until time constraints and the operant conditioning given by convenience or inconvenience take form, such tools are just a want. But if the game wants a playerbase that isn't stratified except by choice, such a convenience is, on the whole, a need. It if the XIV staff wants to reduce unnecessary exclusion the game needs to provide enough convenience (be that by structure, information, analytical tools, or whatever else) to learning that the barrier to entry is not a lack of transparency or understanding of the game systems, but simply whether or not they wish to put in the effort to learn the fight's mechanics and adjust that understanding to them.

[Sigma-Astra]

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

You should be running a parser for EX trials and Savage. You don't need to be a world first group or a theorycrafter, but it's something you should be doing. 2,000 DPS ain't getting you no where in Suzaku and the only way to tell whether it's you or someone else that isn't improving or being detrimental towards the group is...and brace with me...hard. cold. factual. numbers.

[HyoMinPark]

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

I haven’t read the entire thread, so I’ll just speak with regards to what I personally think and feel.

I’m already well aware that parsers will not improve the skill of individuals when it comes to executing mechanics properly, and I’ve never claimed as such. However, parsers can help point out weak links in content where they actually matter: this content includes Extreme primals, Savage raids, and Ultimate raids. The weak links are usually the ones that lead to wipes, and they can be weak for any number of reasons; take your pick.

Parsers give you a quantifiable visual so you aren’t pointing fingers at the wrong individual. Combining them with something like FFLogs or the rDPS calculator or XIV Analysis tool can help players figure out exactly what is wrong, when it went wrong, and hopefully they can get together to try and fix it. But that requires coordination that you won’t find outside of a static, sadly.

No, parsers won’t do the mechanics for you. But if you cannot do the mechanics, you more than likely don’t have the damage or skill level to participate in the content yet. So leave, practice, and come back.

Also, I would kind of like to have one visible to parties so that, in the event I am singled out as being a detriment in terms of damage, I can actually defend myself. I still haven’t forgotten the SAM who called me a trash BRD in TsukuEx despite me being dead for a full 30 seconds and still doing double his damage per second. He was in full i360/i370 with her weapon; I was in i370 BiS... and I was doing 4,600+ DPS as a BRD... lying dead on the floor... to his ~2,500 DPS. I was also in a ShinEx party once where a MCH in i330/i340 gear was harassing a MNK in i320 gear about damage... yet the MNK was doing way more than the MCH... who was below the tanks.

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

Not necessarily. More than just world-first players and theorycrafters use parsers to determine their damage in raid settings, and they’re useful to far more than just those specific individuals. Knowing what your total rDPS is can give you a fairly decent indicator of whether or not you’ll even meet the enrage of a fight (since all Ex/Savage/Ultimate fights have a minimum rDPS that you would need to even meet the enrage), to give one example. And coordinating raid utility and examining if you put out more is always useful to have.

You can’t tell how much damage you’re actually doing without a visible number on your screen. Unless you want to add up the Battle Log data yourself.

You can’t tell if you’re “doing more damage or not” without a visual indicator of such.

Moving things around in your rotation does not mean that you’re suddenly doing more damage. And while you can generally get a feeling of “damage feels a bit low”/“damage is quite high” off of how fast a boss is dying, if the pendulum is swinging towards low... how do you know who the responsible party is for why things are taking so long? Is it one DPS? Is it two? Or are all of them falling behind? You cannot know without a parser. Just like you cannot know how much damage you are personally doing without one.

I think ASTs should always have parsers handy, personally. Can’t tell you how many I see giving Balances to the SAM that’s doing less damage that a PLD or a WAR... Single-target cards can be optimized for bursts when you’re in a static setting and can communicate when bursts are occurring, but that’s not possible in PUG groups; it’s better giving single-target Balances to jobs that can actually do enough damage to make the card not a waste—so...not the SAMs doing less than the tanks.

Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

The idea I’ve always heard of is implementing an in-game DPS meter for Party Finders. Particularly for content where having a parse to see damage actually matters (Extremes, Savages, Ultimate). The idea has always said that it would be a toggle-feature similar to the defunct Duty Recorder where you opt-in (“I want to join this party because they’re using a parser”) or you don’t (“I don’t want to join that party because they’re using a parser”). I don’t see the issue with an implementation like that; I quite like it actually.

I don’t want to get into a healer DPS debate, but if you want to use only 50% of your toolkit instead of the full 100%, then please find another party for it. Because I’m expected to press all of my buttons, so I expect my party members to press all of their buttons as well. Healers included.

[KaivaC]

snip

Why would the devs need to keep parsers in mind when balancing encounters? In every raid dating back to Second Coil (possibly even the original Binding Coils), parsers have been used. Why would developing an official one suddenly necessitate a need to take them into consideration? Handling and successfully clearing mechanics is not the question here – that’s totally on player and party skill to work together to clear them.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that I am representative of the average player who is starting to raid. Say everybody is clearing mechanics properly, we’re all hitting the boss, and the fight in general is going very smoothly. But you hit enrage at 20%. Then information comes out that I’m holding the party back because I’m hitting 4.9k – a grey parse. But I’ve done my rotation correctly. Yet it’s quite obvious that I’m the reason for the enrage. But how am I supposed to know this? I followed my rotation exactly from the guide for my job on TMP.

The answer? In a lot of cases, I won’t know unless I can see the data. I wouldn’t know that I’m having some weaving issues, causing me to miss GCDs. I wouldn’t know that one of my TAs missed because the boss turned at the absolute wrong moment. I wouldn’t know that hitting TCJ at the wrong moment would hurt my overall DPS more than just throwing it out there. Yet in real time during the actual fight, it looks like I did everything just fine. But if I did everything just fine, how can I still be the worst DPS in the group? Why am I still a grey parse?

Things like this are why I want a parser of some kind on the PS4. I’m essentially blind. And every party has the right to kick me based on my parse. And trust me, I have been completely locked out of groups the moment I join. Which means that unless I’m with my static on raid night, I cannot do any raiding unless I just happen to join a party that either doesn’t mind I’m grey parse or doesn’t care.

One bad DPS does matter when most players in endgame are sitting at or near min-ilvl. That speedrunning business – it mostly starts really becoming a thing after about week 4 or so when you essentially have a good chunk of your BiS gear.

[Aerlana]

I'd argue WoW LFR is more casual friendly than FFXIV.

LFR vs whole FFXIV = yes. LFR is there to allow people getting in the raid (and see the story) with the DF system, else, the raids (from normal to mythic) is out of DF, you have to group with party finder/friends, and go to the entry. The DF is a tool that help a lot casual player to enjoy content.

But LFR wow is close to raid24 in FF. 25people vs 24, most boss are quite easy strategy (even ozma was...) And in both, there is kick not when people are leeching, but when there are leecher AND the boss makes wipe. on both game there is no real matter when you LFR/raid24 to carry some other. . . Even with parser showing abyssaly low damages or even AFK people (when 90% of damages is from autoattack... ... ).



This is the reason i laugh when i read "wow is toxic due to parsers". I find both comunity really close in many point.

Toxicity is ALSO from people with "low" gameplay. People who dont want to be pointed due to their DPS. When some are low damages, if we cant tell it to them, there is less chance they will try to improve in next try. Then, f we cant kick them, there is 2 solution, or carry them, or disband. People said the chat in feast as example of toxicity worst than the toxicity previously there. Before? chat, and flaming yes. But it is part of comunication, people can sometime stop flaming, and coordinate their efforts. Now? no more speaking. Flaming didnt disapear, not shown in chat log, but i am not sure the guy is not raging behind his screen. AND he cant even try to comunicate to get a better teamplay.

Each one of us can choose what is the best... i prefer comunicate, getting insulte, than no communication. I prefer being said i have bad DPS, seeing it myself with my own tool (and admit or deny) than just being ignorant of the state...

math, the damage formula is known and potency values are given hell. for this expansion your rotation was already figured out before you logged into stormblood for the first time parsers have nothing to do with it.

Is it useless to know stats weight?
How do you know the efficiency of 1 point in secundary stats without parser?

theory are a thing, then need to try the theory. Then, during a fight, you have sometime to think if it is a good idea to delay a little this or this cooldown. (and no mathematics can decide it). To get the "bis" stuff you have to know stats weight, to know stat weight ,you have to know the effect of each point. Mathematic cant says it without some tool to measure.


During ARR, we had thunderIII, longest dot, longest cast. Thunder, the lowest in time and cast, and thunder II in the middle between both. mathematics made close thunder and thunder II. tries of cycle (so need parse to see difference) said it was better to use thunderII even if the cast is over a GCD.

*snip*

SE already considers "parser" when creating a fight.
First, they said "now we will have the LB3 count to define how much damages" or "we will improve the DPS from the healers needed to kill the boss".
They have to... difficult content is not only hard mechanics to do. else lets do only bosses like 2nd bardam, managing only mechanics.
Difficulty is getting the mechanics, while sorting out enough damages to not get the enrage. so, getting out of the melee at the last second, remember to do 1 or 2 hit if you go near the boss/an add while moving to your destination. etc etc etc. If SE dont look to the theorical DPS, they will make some content nearly impossible (too much damages needed) or too weak (when enrage is not a matter, you can fight 50% more time to be sure to not do any miss on mechanics...)