How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Penthea]

I'd have to dig, but a few people in this very thread mentioned it.

So in other words parser toxicity is the most common form of toxicity in WoW that you know of, given you can't even remember anything else.

That is the very definition of coddling. A beneficial tool is being banned because some people may abuse it and say mean things. How is this any different than an equivalent "safe space?"

Firstly it's very unlikely that's the only reason why its banned. Another but less mentioned criticism about parsers is that players often use them as the sole indication of a class's worth. While this may look harmless at a glance, this is something that actually threatens class identity.

It's well known among raiders that certain classes have lower dps potential to balance out having utility. Proper raiders usually understand this balance but outside of that playerbase it tends to be misunderstood. Some people automatically assume a certain class isn't worth playing if the damage output of another is higher, and they don't even give a thought to utility. As time went on in WoW utility became less and less relevant partially because the community began to prioritise damage far above everything else. This actually caused a lot of friction because players felt like their favoured classes/specs were being overlooked, and it was a major contributing factor to a lot of class homogenisation. If there was an official parser I'd be shocked if rdm would still be as popular as it is now. Right now it's mostly the raiding community who hesitate to take rdm on anything but progress. But if everyone could easily see how much lower their damage potential is than a smn, rdm would be significantly less popular even outside of raiding circles.

Secondly this beneficial tool is too easily abused, and thus it can become the opposite of a beneficial tool. I won't argue that it's beneficial to see your performance in a way that can be analysed, because it is. However the issue is quite a large amount of players don't know how to use this tool properly.

In WoW I got hassle on an alt because my dps was crap...but it was crap because most of my dps came from dots and mobs died well before they could have their full effect. I tried explaining this but all I got was "lol l2p". The funny thing is on my main I played the same class and I had among the highest dps in our raids even though it wasn't even my main spec. I definitely knew how to play it. But due to classes not being designed to be balanced in low lvl content, and encountering players who don't understand this, I got hassle over something completely out of my control. This was far from the first time I had seen something like this happen.

I already see this sort of thing in XIV. Every so often when I pug dungeons I see healers given snarky remarks over lack of dps even though the tank is obviously putting them in a position in which they can't do much dps or else there will be a wipe. This is already happening just from people watching hardcasts in the party ui. Can you imagine what that would be like if everyone had a parser?

Instead of rooting out the toxic individuals, you're shifting blame on the tool itself.

No I'm not, I'm blaming people who don't know how to use a parser correctly and people who intentionally misuse it. I think parsers are great tools, but I'm also painfully aware of how common it is for people to use them incorrectly. I don't think any amount of tutorials or in-game help messages would mitigate that. Parser misuse is still happening in WoW despite the fact it's been in the game for over a decade. If a lot of the community there still can't use it correctly after all this time, what makes you think XIV would be any better or different?

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

[Vahlnir]

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

Yep, nailed it right on the head. Imo a parser that is used to gauge the performance of yourself as well as your party members isn't the best idea. it's one of those things that people think they want, but they don't. They should be careful what they wish for. A personal parser is fine. Beyond that I just don't see it ending well. I'm a firm believer that parsers themselves aren't bad. It's how (and when) they are used. Personal experience has shown me how much they are misused, and it is too often. Once that can of worms is opened there is no going back. People need to consider the ramifications of such a tool in the wrong hands.

[Legion88]

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

But introducing a normal parser in which you can compare yourself to others at a glance? No I'm strongly against this because my time in WoW showed me the long-term ill effects from it. The gain doesn't outweigh the negative aspects.

Stop right now.
Dummies have only one use: training muscle memory.

We don't really need a parser, because it is already ingame: the battle log.
The only problem is, that the battle log is hard and to time consuming to read and analyse.
We need an analysing tool like fflogs and xivanalysis to transvere the data from the battle log into easy readable and interpretable display with timelines, graphs and charts.

Informations from a dummy can only be used for a xivanalysis style autointerpreting and hint giving for a base improvement of the jobs knowledge.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So in other words parser toxicity is the most common form of toxicity in WoW that you know of, given you can't even remember anything else.

That is... a quantum leap in logic. Or lack thereof. I merely stated people in this very thread have said otherwise. In what universe does that abruptly make it the most common form of toxicity. In my experiences, albeit from forum discussions and reddit as I do not play WoW myself, parsers aren't any more toxic than anything else. You're putting forth anecdotal evidence and claiming it factual.

Firstly it's very unlikely that's the only reason why its banned.

Because the developers want us to pick up the slack for other players. Yoshidra outright stated as much almost verbatim. They have the misguided belief people will muscle bad players through, thus bolstering clear rates. While this mentality does work in Japan, it simply doesn't in NA/EU. In fact, it's a very common Japanese development philosophy to obscure information as they either want you to figure it out independently or play the game as they envision it. This is why JRPG are numerous for more convoluted system design than their Western counterpart. Put simply, the devs want us to simply clear content. Which is fine, in theory, but a good amount of raiders either way to see gradual improvement or don't want to carry players they perceive liability. There's a reason ranking systems have become ubiquitous nowadays, and why it's a highly requested feature for FFXIV itself; in the form of Mythic+.

Another but less mentioned criticism about parsers is that players often use them as the sole indication of a class's worth. While this may look harmless at a glance, this is something that actually threatens class identity.

This already happens. An official parse won't make a lick of difference because most people who care about job balance are already well aware which jobs are more favourable. It's literally among the first things theorycrafters work out whenever new adjustments are made. The difference between WoW and FFXIV is everything in the latter has viability. WoW, on the other hand, doesn't. Some classes are simply inferior in every way. I can't go into specifics since I only know from hearsay, but it's fairly common knowledge WoW balance shifts on a whim, and some classes don't fair too well. Nevertheless, when "meta" has been brought up on Reddit, the typically response is, "Who cares? Everything is viable." So no, I'm not buying a public parse would abruptly make people dismiss Red Mages in dungeons. Which is a ludicrous thought anyway since their AoE potential is monstrous. People generally don't care what you do in dungeons beyond healers DPS, larger pulls and aoe-ing. Even Savage where parse use is commonplace, they don't. Most groups who block Samurai or Black Mage do so because they have come across so many bad ones, they're just a little jaded.

Secondly this beneficial tool is too easily abused, and thus it can become the opposite of a beneficial tool. I won't argue that it's beneficial to see your performance in a way that can be analysed, because it is. However the issue is quite a large amount of players don't know how to use this tool properly.

In WoW I got hassle on an alt because my dps was crap...but it was crap because most of my dps came from dots and mobs died well before they could have their full effect. I tried explaining this but all I got was "lol l2p". The funny thing is on my main I played the same class and I had among the highest dps in our raids even though it wasn't even my main spec. I definitely knew how to play it. But due to classes not being designed to be balanced in low lvl content, and encountering players who don't understand this, I got hassle over something completely out of my control. This was far from the first time I had seen something like this happen.

And? Some moron acted like a jerk, only making themselves look foolish. Who cares? You laugh and move on with your life. I had a Tsukiyomi EX party where a Samurai I was out-dpsing by a 1,000 despite having died called me shit when I said people need to step up the damage. You know what I did? I laughed at him. I also mentioned in a roundabout manner the Bard was doing almost double his damage when he mouthed off to her. By the way, here is a prime example of toxicity, and it isn't coming from the parse users. Remember how I accused your stance of coddling? This is precisely why. Some idiot says mean words to someone, and we need to wrap them in blankets and ban the parsers because they may, possibly, potentially, unknowingly get their knickers twisted. We can't have anyone's feelings hurt! You have just described a safe space.

I once got yelled at by a very good player. He wasn't particularly rude, just blunt. I messed up mechanics because it was 4am and a friend dragged me into Sephirot EX when I was half asleep. Did it sting a bit? Sure. I still pulled up my panties and got over it. They were right to criticise. And even if they weren't, I shrug it off and move on.

I already see this sort of thing in XIV. Every so often when I pug dungeons I see healers given snarky remarks over lack of dps even though the tank is obviously putting them in a position in which they can't do much dps or else there will be a wipe. This is already happening just from people watching hardcasts in the party ui. Can you imagine what that would be like if everyone had a parser?

Yes, you could point out to the DPS crying about everything taking longer maybe they ought to do more damage than the White Mage.

This is entire post is, frankly, quite disingenuous. You only highlight the negative; insinuating a doom and gloom scenario is basically the only possible outcome. Meanwhile, I have actually spoken to people who had no one idea they were doing anything wrong because the game does a piss poor job showing any information. Not too long ago, I even had a Dark Knight in Guardian Normal ask if someone were parsing. Why? He'd been trying to improve but as a PS4 player, he couldn't see his numbers. Unfortunately, people rarely discuss the positive side of parsing because drama is typically more compelling on forums. That, and you have people convinced ACT is the boogeyman that will destroy FFXIV if it were ever made public. God forbid you actually improve before trying out Savage...

No I'm not, I'm blaming people who don't know how to use a parser correctly and people who intentionally misuse it.

By coddling the entire community because a few jerks exist. That is shifting blame onto the tool itself; insinuating it's too dangerous. You cannot draw parallels to WoW because your experiences are anecdotal. Not to mention, WoW boasts a significantly larger playerbase. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier. You are going to see more toxicity by virtue of the sheer population difference hence why people generalize Gilgamesh as a "shitty elitist server." You were simply more likely to find an "elitist" on Gilgamesh than Zalera.

All this being said I think XIV should give better tools to allow players to access their own performance. At the very least the game should display personal dps. The stone sky sea dummies should also display dps instead of just giving players a timer to go on and forcing them to go to a third party tool to glean the true meaning behind their kill time. Additionally there should be more analytical utility given to target dummy furnishings, because right now their function is too basic. Currently pc players are at a distinct advantage when it comes to analysing personal dps and I think SE should address this in some manner.

A personal parse, while not a bad start per se, doesn't work well in a game so heavily reliant on team composition. Without any context, a person seeing they're doing 4,000 DPS on Samurai may assume that is pretty decent despite Samurais pulling beyond 7,000. You also have to factor in raid buffs and how they correlate with each respective job. Bards, in particular, are going to have widely fluctuating results because they are more dependent on Crit progs and piercing. Furthermore, you do realize PF will demand you show these personal parses as proof you have a general idea what you're doing, yes? Essentially defeating the entire point behind anonymity.

Regardless, a target dummy will not display accurate results relative to a mechanic active fight whereas a parse will. You can see in live action how badly movement impacts your DPS as a Black Mage or how dropping your combo severely lowers your damage. None of this is visible on a dummy that won't do anything. I suppose it's better than nothing though.

[Penthea]

By the way, here is a prime example of toxicity, and it isn't coming from the parse users. Remember how I accused your stance of coddling? This is precisely why. Some idiot says mean words to someone, and we need to wrap them in blankets and ban the parsers because they may, possibly, potentially, unknowingly get their knickers twisted. We can't have anyone's feelings hurt! You have just described a safe space.

And? Some moron acted like a jerk, only making themselves look foolish. Who cares? You laugh and move on with your life.

You are actually acting as if considering the abuse of a tool is a bad thing, simply because the tool can be useful. It appears you do not care of the negative affects a parser can have because you are able to laugh it off if it's directed at you. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is confident in their ability, and not everyone understands the game enough to know if they're being wrongly accused of poor performance.

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax. Not to be worried about some jerks who are synced down giving them crap for playing a class they're learning or trying to gear up. You may think wanting to prevent this is wrapping people in a blanket, but it's granting a measure of fairness to people to not be judged by a mere glance at some numbers when the reasons for their damage output could very well be completely unrelated to the buttons they're pressing, or justified considering their lack of experience.

Additionally parsers may make lvl sync problematic if sprouts see that their dps cannot compare to lvl 60+ synced players. They may think they are actually doing something wrong when they're not simply because the parser makes it appear so. In a sense the game would be doing parser abuse on its own by potentially making unsynced players look bad.

But apparently looking at the bigger picture equates to swaddling the game in bubble-wrap.

[Legion88]

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax. Not to be worried about some jerks who are synced down giving them crap for playing a class they're learning or trying to gear up. You may think wanting to prevent this is wrapping people in a blanket, but it's granting a measure of fairness to people to not be judged by a mere glance at some numbers when the reasons for their damage output could very well be completely unrelated to the buttons they're pressing, or justified considering their lack of experience.

Additionally parsers may make lvl sync problematic if sprouts see that their dps cannot compare to lvl 60+ synced players. They may think they are actually doing something wrong when they're not simply because the parser makes it appear so. In a sense the game would be doing parser abuse on its own by potentially making unsynced players look bad.

1.) Initially no one asked for parsers in leveling content, only for dummies, ExTrials and Savage. Only Anti-Parser-People are bringing this up, despite the repeated cases of Pro-Parser-People not wanting this in the "casual" and leveling content.

2.) Common sense should tell people that an unsynced person is always inferior to an synced person due to the synced person having all main and sub stats synced at the possible cap.

3.) People just wanting to relax, having some fun time and escape reality have a whole bunch of content they can enjoy, "casual" content. If they decide to leave their house of "casual" content and should be prepared for the rough weather awaiting them their.

[Penthea]

1.) Initially no one asked for parsers in leveling content, only for dummies, ExTrials and Savage. Only Anti-Parser-People are bringing this up, despite the repeated cases of Pro-Parser-People not wanting this in the "casual" and leveling content.

Maybe in this thread but in general a lot of people who want parsers want it in all content. Saying this from my experience in other threads relating to parsers. I agree that parsers are only really relevant and useful at max lvl, especially in savage or ex. But if SE introduce them for that content, players will demand it in the rest of the game too.

2.) Common sense should tell people that an unsynced person is always inferior to an synced person due to the synced person having all main and sub stats synced at the possible cap.

Common sense is sometimes a result of experience. A sprout might not realise exactly what lvl syncing does and therefore would not understand why their dps is so low by comparison. Additionally common sense can be in short supply. Only got to have a look in alliance raids to see proof of this. A lot of people leave their brain at the door when they start gaming.

3.) People just wanting to relax, having some fun time and escape reality have a whole bunch of content they can enjoy, "casual" content. If they decide to leave their house of "casual" content and should be prepared for the rough weather awaiting them their.

I agree but as I said before a lot of pro-parser players want parsers in all content, so this would include the casual content. I understand wanting to be able to analyse your performance from the beginning, but due to class balance while lvling and the fact that the content is intended to be casual, I feel parsers have no place there.

[Speaks]

snip

Not who you responded to but I would like to make a note of something as a Savage/EX content player.

Whether you know it or want it, right now you are already being parsed. Your runs are already being uploaded. I have my "abacus on my desk" running at all times. I can already see if you are good or bad.

And if I am in a dungeon run and my "abacus on my desk" shows that you are not doing anything, you may be kicked. Does it happens frequently? Not at all. But I would like to point out a "difference in playstyle" is already a legitimate kick reason AFAIK.

This game has genuinely tight hard enrages on many of the more difficult fights. Not soft enrages like you often see in WoW either, where you may be able to survive a good bit past the enrage with a decent healer. This game straight up kills everyone in the raid instantly and makes you start over if your rDPS is not high enough.

And since parsers are officially not allowed, you know what that means when I see a 2k DPS SAM in Suz EX? They are getting kicked. Immediately. With no reason or remark given.

I would like to ask them "Hey, is something going on I noticed your DPS is really low. Do you need help or perhaps you are overworked for the content? Maybe you need more ilvl? Can I make suggestions on aligning your rotation? Do you have raid food active?"

These are things I do for people in my static because they know I use my abacus. They know when they do poorly and if they need to pick up the pace so that everyone in the group can pass the DPS check. These are things I cannot do for anyone outside my group, nor would I ever risk mentioning or suggesting I parse.

Because of course I don't, that would be my trusty desk abacus.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You are actually acting as if considering the abuse of a tool is a bad thing, simply because the tool can be useful. It appears you do not care of the negative affects a parser can have because you are able to laugh it off if it's directed at you. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is confident in their ability, and not everyone understands the game enough to know if they're being wrongly accused of poorperformance.

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax. Not to be worried about some jerks who are synced down giving them crap for playing a class they're learning or trying to gear up. You may think wanting to prevent this is wrapping people in a blanket, but it's granting a measure of fairness to people to not be judged by a mere glance at some numbers when the reasons for their damage output could very well be completely unrelated to the buttons they're pressing, or justified considering their lack of experience.

Additionally parsers may make lvl sync problematic if sprouts see that their dps cannot compare to lvl 60+ synced players. They may think they are actually doing something wrong when they're not simply because the parser makes it appear so. In a sense the game would be doing parser abuse on its own by potentially making unsynced players look bad.

But apparently looking at the bigger picture equates to swaddling the game in bubble-wrap.

No. I am acting like accentuating the negative aspects and presuming they will overshadow any and all positives is a bad thing. Which, is it. Likewise, what I said is we shouldn't ban a beneficial tool because some people had their feelings hurt. I don't doubt people will take offense. That seems to be the unfortunate norm nowadays. But you don't promote borderline censorship because some people can't handle someone saying mean things to them online. If taken to its logical extreme, I could tell spam you right now. Should we remove the tell feature? After all, I am misusing it to cause harm. And we have established even the mere prospect of hurt feelings is enough reason to overlook any other benefits said feature might provide. Obviously, that would be absurd. You would report and/or Blacklist me. So what does that differ when a parse is involved? Why wouldn't you take the exact same recourse?

Fantastic. They can stay out of harder content. Why should other people have to cater to the whims of someone else who wants to "relax" whilst wasting the time of their party who may not share their same leisurely perspective? Since to mention, Leveling in a separate post. I am specifically referring to EX Primals and Savage. Even if a parse ever did become commonplace, people aren't going to care anymore than they already do about trivial dungeons. You'll see people more vocally point out a lack of Healer DPS or AoE but nothing in the realm of "omg, Samurai sucks for dungeons!" It just isn't going to happen enough to be worth mentioning. Regardless, people advocating for parses generally want them in harder content, not dungeons. And that's where the issue lies. I don't appreciate someone wasting my time because they couldn't be bothered to learn a proper rotation yet still chose to join a Suzaku EX farm party.

Common sense still prevails. Even a sprout ought to pick up quickly a max level player is going to do far higher damage. In fact, it opens up an opportunity to ask. Shock horror, I know, but people are surprisingly more helpful than this forum likes to give credit. Furthermore, an in-game would likely be something people have to turn on themselves. Therefore, a new player wouldn't even see it until later on. Could someone heckle them about low damage? Sure. They can do so right now. I know someone in this very thread who bailed on a dungeon because someone claimed they were new. No parser. They just didn't want to deal with a new player.

You aren't looking at the bigger picture. What you've said can essentially be boiled down to "someone could have their feelings hurt!" Hence why you're bubble-wrapping the game.