How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[JunseiKei]

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it. And yet in the past year you could count the number of threads bringing up such a dilemma on a single hand. Parse abuse is the same boogeyman nonsense "raider elitism" and other such buzzwords are. You're generalizing the actions of a few.

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

[Shurrikhan]

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

And? What does players being kicked, over numbers or otherwise, inherently have to do with toxicity?

What defines a toxic use of parsers to you? Or inversely, at what point does obfuscation of relevant information prevent toxicity, in your opinion? And, at what point specifically is a kick or exclusivity toxic?

Thus far we have a handful of actual accounts of people being kicked "due to numbers".

We have far more of people being kicked because they tanked too quickly or slowly, or, separately, because they suggested that their healer could maybe spend less than 80% of the time idling. We've had people kicked for asking their DPS + tank premade to stand in fewer AoEs.

I've even seen, personally, more times in which someone has been kicked so that a party of two can leave a dungeon without penalty that there are actual accounts of people being, to their mind, unfairly kicked over their numbers. I'd vote against the seemingly trollish kick, be outvoted, and then the remaining two would vanish instantly. Over the course of leveling all but AST to 70, that's happened 7 or 8 times. I've both been the lucky and unlucky of the two premade members to (not) be kicked by a couple of German-queued friends on a NA servers, whose friend quickly joined thereafter for the daily bonus. Now, those are blatant system abuses. I think we can agree that they fall well into or even beyond toxic behavior. But, where does "toxic" begin? Is it when I dare to assert my preferences through words rather than action? Is it fine if I, as a tank, refuse to pull more than the smallest possible number of mobs at a time -- so long as I do so silently -- but not if I suggest that we could pull more if players would use their AoEs? Just, draw your line in the sand. Please.

You've not proposed that these situations, too, are or are not toxic. But if we're going to discuss toxicity that will arrive from conflicts in intent or playstyle--which, information obscured or not all these things come down to--it seems to omit the entire category to which something belongs, even if only in interest of discovering the unique intent towards and results in toxic behavior that parsing may or may trigger. I cannot personally find that uniqueness. I see, if one wishes to categorize it separately, a relative small subset of complaints, dwarfed by other subsets in count yet inversely more notorious. I see a difference in medium, at most. And just I don't consider assault by steak knife fundamentally different in intent or injury than assault by pocket knife, even if the latter can be more easily concealed, I don't see discrimination or abuse (which I would define as action harmful to another's experience without reasonable cause and/or with the intent of personal gain at that others expense via a method outside the ToA) by the fact alone that a more advanced tool was used in causing that injury.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

I cannot speak on Bourne's behalf, and thus it would be inefficient to retailor a response in his or her place, but if you really are asking for understanding, posts with those very details are already scattered throughout this thread.

[JunseiKei]

And? What does players being kicked, over numbers or otherwise, inherently have to do with toxicity?

What defines a toxic use of parsers to you? Or inversely, at what point does obfuscation of relevant information prevent toxicity, in your opinion? And, at what point specifically is a kick or exclusivity toxic?

Thus far we have a handful of actual accounts of people being kicked "due to numbers".

We have far more of people being kicked because they tanked too quickly or slowly, or, separately, because they suggested that their healer could maybe spend less than 80% of the time idling. We've had people kicked for asking their DPS + tank premade to stand in fewer AoEs.

You've not proposed that these, too, are or are not toxic. But if we're going to discuss toxicity that will arrive from conflicts in intent or playstyle--which, information obscured or not all these things come down to--it seems to omit the entire category to which something belongs, even if only in interest of discovering the unique intent towards and results in toxic behavior that parsing may or may trigger. I cannot find that uniqueness. I see, if one wishes to categorize it separately, a relative small subset of complaints, dwarfed by other subsets in count yet inversely more notorious.


I cannot speak on Bourne's behalf, and thus it would be inefficient to retailor a response in his or her place, but if you really are asking for understanding, posts with those very details are already scattered throughout this thread.

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

[Shurrikhan]

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

So you see your presence here solely as a PSA?

Even if one may have good reason to believe that, like certain other aspects of the game, the above stance lacks comprehensive thought or is in some way errant, it is worthless to discuss such things, even when that falls well within the parameters of these forums' purpose?

This thread is not titled "Is XIV likely to see an official parser?" The question, if one were to interpolate liberally, is whether it should. And the direct question... is the name of the thread.

I get the realist angle. I do. But you're applying your fixation to a question to which it is irrelevant.

[Legion88]

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

The koike incident is not based on parsing it were some jerks who planned to harrass a person and streamed it live to the world.
6 people griefed an offical staff member by ridiculing her actions and sexually harrassed her, the mentioning of DPS numbers was just a little part of that and not even more than a sideline.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

You realize they went into her party with the intent of harassing her and making fun of her right at the start? They didn't start making fun of her just because "parses". They would've done the same without parses. Also, prove that sexually harassing her was just because of parses.

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

[Selova]

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

This is the tactic they use whenever the topic of parsers comes up. They like to deflect their own unreasonable hatred towards parsers and those who use them by blaming "Raiders" and "Elitists" aka people they never play with and use anecdotal examples of potential toxicity that would occur if a official parser was implemented. They will go to any lengths to try to prove that if a official parser was ever added into the game the servers would implode and the game would die. The irony of it all is that the people that are the most toxic are the ones who are completely against parsers for nonsensical reasons.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

And neither is wide-spread kicking. You're omitting part of my argument to suit your own. I never said people aren't kick. In fact, the very part of my post you quoted specifically highlighted it doesn't happen with any sort of regularity. Therefore, the idea parsers would abruptly cause widespread toxicity simply doesn't add up. They're already prevalent, and people aren't being kicked left and right. Hence why it doesn't exist.

You did precisely that. Nowhere in my initial post did I claim people wouldn't judge others nor did I insinuate otherwise. I find rather ironic you accuse me of strawmanning, when you did so yourself.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

For reasons stated above. It's common knowledge if you set foot in either EX or Savage, someone in your party will have ACT running. Despite this, people aren't being kicked left and right otherwise we would be seeing threads about it like virtually everything else. We don't. Your entire stance relies on people abruptly turning into assholes because a tool which they already use is allowed to be discussed publicly. Toxic people do not need a parse to be jerks. If someone annoys them, they aren't going to hold back just because they can't reveal what said person's DPS numbers were. Will some people abuse it? Absolutely. Just like the Vote Abandon system hence my previous example—the one who claimed a strawman. Generalizing the entire playerbase based on the action of a few... well, that's a silly position to take.

If you want to get technical, neither of us have any definitive answer one way or another. You cannot claim people will abruptly treat each other worse and the game as a whole will suffer if ACT were discussed openly.

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

Alphascape is harder. You think anyone cares about parsing it? Harder casual content doesn't mean EX or Savage difficulty. How many times do we have to reiterate this? The Vault wasn't hard, but it also wasn't a dungeon I basically fell asleep through. Meanwhile, Swallow's Compass is so laughably easy I literally don't need a healer.

[JunseiKei]

So you should also advocate against the introduction of a forum or better to its closing and for the removing of chat and emotes because they are the main tools for harrassment.

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.

~snip~

Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.

[Ilan]

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.



Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

A jerk will always be a jerk no matter if he has a tool like the parser or not. This is just an old and useless argument.