How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[thegreatonemal]

Which Stone Sky Sea itself doesn't teach you. Good job, you can manage your 3 minute rotation on a static striking dummy. The dummy doesn't even simulate aoe to dodge, boss jumps, which are the most common places anyone fumbles with their rotation in content even as low as expert.

apply what you do on the dummy in the actual fight. play the game you use the dummies to build up muscle memory. its job is not to simulate a fight its asking a simple question: does this person know the mechanics of the job they are playing yes or no

[Dirwen]

The people mostly advocating for an official parser probably already use the 3rd party one. Why even bother? This reminds me of the windower issue on FF11 and once SE finally added it was useless. People prefer the 3rd party version.

If its anything like FF11 then its the JP community that matters to SE when they decide on matters anyway.

[XiXiQ]

The people mostly advocating for an official parser probably already use the 3rd party one. Why even bother?

The people advocating for official parsers have a ps4, they have no method at all beyond SSS to measure their DPS. They have no 3rd party options at all, they don't even get logs beyond a few hundred lines worth.

[JunseiKei]

Source on that quote please. I know he walked out jokingly but I never saw that exact quote.

Me too.

I only know the statement for the great skill gap and he would think about implementing one when/if the gap would be smaller.

Would love to hand you the source, except it was from a live stream in 2016 in Las Vegas. The service only keeps the stream for 1 year before expiring it and making it unable to be accessed. I can't say I've had much luck locating the player Q&A.

That being a concern is a big nothing burger though. If they were truly concerned about exclusion they wouldn't have created DF features that allowed you to only queue with people who cleared, or PF features that let you exclude jobs or ilvl, or fight status.

There is a big difference between being able to clear the fight and performing to a degree someone else deems "worthy." Generally, the fights are tuned so if you know your rotation and can do mechanics, you can clear - even in savage (ultimate may be another story).

Yes, SE gave us tools to arbitrarily include and exclude people at our own leisure based on 'have you killed it before?' and 'we need this kind of party.' I'm sure you'd have been thrilled getting 3 samurai in ByakkoEX trying to use tank LB3 without such features. Or it might have forced people to do the fight the supposed intended way. Then again, I can't recall many co-operative games even telling you if someone is new to a fight to begin with.

However, none of that still has nothing to do with a player having the ability to see someone pulling 200-700 less damage than they'd like and decides to boot them.

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.

It's apparently not enough SE turns a blind eye to people using ACT as it is, but the abuse is against ToS. You can't say you know parsing isn't impacting how people behave and treat others. Do you have a metric for this? Do you really think people will say they are kicking someone for bad DPS, knowing it's against ToS to use a third party program like ACT?

:| "Giving people metrics to judge each other, that will never affect people being jerks to each other."
*Watches every other facet of life prove this incorrect.*

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It's apparently not enough SE turns a blind eye to people using ACT as it is, but the abuse is against ToS. You can't say you know parsing isn't impacting how people behave and treat others. Do you have a metric for this? Do you really think people will say they are kicking someone for bad DPS, knowing it's against ToS to use a third party program like ACT?

:| "Giving people metrics to judge each other, that will never affect people being jerks to each other."
*Watches every other facet of life prove this incorrect.*

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it. And yet in the past year you could count the number of threads bringing up such a dilemma on a single hand. Parse abuse is the same boogeyman nonsense "raider elitism" and other such buzzwords are. You're generalizing the actions of a few.

Don't be obtuse. Judging people and harassment are not the same thing. I can judge you on the context of your post here and now. Is that harassment? If not, then please don't put words in my mouth. Nevertheless, if we're going to fault the tool. Why hasn't Vote Abandon been removed from the game? People spam it incessantly following a couple wipes, especially in 24 mans just to avoid taking a penalty. I can kick you for literally any reason, including "I don't like your glamour." I suppose we need to remove the Vote Kick option, hmm? These argument seems to entirely omit the fact harassment remains against the ToS. If I tell you to uninstall your game, I can be reported. It makes little difference whether I cite parse numbers first. Therefore, unless SE abruptly stops taking harassment seriously, the people who do act like jerks will end up banned.

But yes, let's assume adding an official parse or simply allowing ACT to be discussed openly will magically turn even half the community into raging assholes.

Ya'll heard of parsing in Pagos, now get ready for some next level parsing of less than high end content.

Next up, parsing leveling roulette.

People already do both. You can even upload dungeon parses to FFlogs nowadays. No one cares, though it would be nice to show DPS why aoeing large pulls is better than single targeting, but I digress.

[JunseiKei]

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it. And yet in the past year you could count the number of threads bringing up such a dilemma on a single hand. Parse abuse is the same boogeyman nonsense "raider elitism" and other such buzzwords are. You're generalizing the actions of a few.

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

[Shurrikhan]

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

And? What does players being kicked, over numbers or otherwise, inherently have to do with toxicity?

What defines a toxic use of parsers to you? Or inversely, at what point does obfuscation of relevant information prevent toxicity, in your opinion? And, at what point specifically is a kick or exclusivity toxic?

Thus far we have a handful of actual accounts of people being kicked "due to numbers".

We have far more of people being kicked because they tanked too quickly or slowly, or, separately, because they suggested that their healer could maybe spend less than 80% of the time idling. We've had people kicked for asking their DPS + tank premade to stand in fewer AoEs.

I've even seen, personally, more times in which someone has been kicked so that a party of two can leave a dungeon without penalty that there are actual accounts of people being, to their mind, unfairly kicked over their numbers. I'd vote against the seemingly trollish kick, be outvoted, and then the remaining two would vanish instantly. Over the course of leveling all but AST to 70, that's happened 7 or 8 times. I've both been the lucky and unlucky of the two premade members to (not) be kicked by a couple of German-queued friends on a NA servers, whose friend quickly joined thereafter for the daily bonus. Now, those are blatant system abuses. I think we can agree that they fall well into or even beyond toxic behavior. But, where does "toxic" begin? Is it when I dare to assert my preferences through words rather than action? Is it fine if I, as a tank, refuse to pull more than the smallest possible number of mobs at a time -- so long as I do so silently -- but not if I suggest that we could pull more if players would use their AoEs? Just, draw your line in the sand. Please.

You've not proposed that these situations, too, are or are not toxic. But if we're going to discuss toxicity that will arrive from conflicts in intent or playstyle--which, information obscured or not all these things come down to--it seems to omit the entire category to which something belongs, even if only in interest of discovering the unique intent towards and results in toxic behavior that parsing may or may trigger. I cannot personally find that uniqueness. I see, if one wishes to categorize it separately, a relative small subset of complaints, dwarfed by other subsets in count yet inversely more notorious. I see a difference in medium, at most. And just I don't consider assault by steak knife fundamentally different in intent or injury than assault by pocket knife, even if the latter can be more easily concealed, I don't see discrimination or abuse (which I would define as action harmful to another's experience without reasonable cause and/or with the intent of personal gain at that others expense via a method outside the ToA) by the fact alone that a more advanced tool was used in causing that injury.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

I cannot speak on Bourne's behalf, and thus it would be inefficient to retailor a response in his or her place, but if you really are asking for understanding, posts with those very details are already scattered throughout this thread.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

And neither is wide-spread kicking. You're omitting part of my argument to suit your own. I never said people aren't kick. In fact, the very part of my post you quoted specifically highlighted it doesn't happen with any sort of regularity. Therefore, the idea parsers would abruptly cause widespread toxicity simply doesn't add up. They're already prevalent, and people aren't being kicked left and right. Hence why it doesn't exist.

You did precisely that. Nowhere in my initial post did I claim people wouldn't judge others nor did I insinuate otherwise. I find rather ironic you accuse me of strawmanning, when you did so yourself.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

For reasons stated above. It's common knowledge if you set foot in either EX or Savage, someone in your party will have ACT running. Despite this, people aren't being kicked left and right otherwise we would be seeing threads about it like virtually everything else. We don't. Your entire stance relies on people abruptly turning into assholes because a tool which they already use is allowed to be discussed publicly. Toxic people do not need a parse to be jerks. If someone annoys them, they aren't going to hold back just because they can't reveal what said person's DPS numbers were. Will some people abuse it? Absolutely. Just like the Vote Abandon system hence my previous example—the one who claimed a strawman. Generalizing the entire playerbase based on the action of a few... well, that's a silly position to take.

If you want to get technical, neither of us have any definitive answer one way or another. You cannot claim people will abruptly treat each other worse and the game as a whole will suffer if ACT were discussed openly.

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

Alphascape is harder. You think anyone cares about parsing it? Harder casual content doesn't mean EX or Savage difficulty. How many times do we have to reiterate this? The Vault wasn't hard, but it also wasn't a dungeon I basically fell asleep through. Meanwhile, Swallow's Compass is so laughably easy I literally don't need a healer.

[RiyahArp]

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it.

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

[Legion88]

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

We already have a DPS check in ever second dungeon and more.
You just don't notice him because he is balanced for the min ilvl and in general the average casual player exceeds this ilvl.