How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Vahlnir]

I have nothing against the idea of parsers. In the right hands parsers would be used for good. In the wrong hands...not so much. Sadly those "wrong hands" have to be taken into account, and imo parsers shouldn't be permitted for official use as a result. I've played enough WoW over the years to see the good, the bad and the ugly with parsers. It is simply abused too often. Not always, but still too often.

[AriaXIV]

I have nothing against the idea of parsers. In the right hands parsers would be used for good. In the wrong hands...not so much. Sadly those "wrong hands" have to be taken into account, and imo parsers shouldn't be permitted for official use as a result.

Yeah see the wrong hands are the problem.. they seem to be more frequent.

[Dirwen]

I'm against having an official parser. It will bring more bad than good. Doubt I'll bother trying high tier raids as it looks too skill intensive so my opinion is probably pointless. Granted I'm worried people will use it for normal content and it'll trickle down to low level stuff too making it the standard. Therefore, more drama and in turn making the community more toxic.

[Legion88]

I'm against having an official parser. It will bring more bad than good. Doubt I'll bother trying high tier raids as it looks too skill intensive so my opinion is probably pointless. Granted I'm worried people will use it for normal content and it'll trickle down to low level stuff too making it the standard. Therefore, more drama and in turn making the community more toxic.

1.) How would the usage of an official fully functional parser limited to the high end game be possible in dungeons and "casual" content?

2.) Toxicity doesn't come from a parser.

1. Parser generates facts and facts are not toxic.
2. People take the facts and form them via words, feelings and intent.
3. Also people interpreting the fromed words with their own intent and feelings.

Number 1 doesn't generate toxicity. Number 2 and 3 can generate toxicity depending on feelings and intent.
Also if people wouldn't be seeking drama and put on their big boy pants more often it would be less toxicity, because toxicity is subjectiv and depends heavily on context and interpretation.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's not my point. It can't be a gear check, because the issue people want gatekeeping fights for is not gear, but skill. And if they don't have the skill to beat it on launch, they need to practice till they can or they can't enter the instance. If they need to rely on better gear to beat the challenge, then it will be too late. You won't be able to be understanding, the gatekeeper will keep them out of the fight. The point is that with a gatekeeper like this, it will delay people from entering to prevent that. And by then, there won't be people who need newbies.

If they cannot beat this hypothetical gatekeeper, they have no business joining parties for that piece of content. You acknowledge they lack the skill outright and may struggle. Why is it because who don't lack said skill obligated to carry this person through content? If I set up a Suzaku farm party, this means I expect people to know all the mechanics and have cleared the fight preferable multiple times. Now I certainly won't kick people for mistakes here or there. We're only human. Mistakes are going to happen no matter how good you may be. What I don't appreciate is someone who has no idea what they're doing yet expects the rest of us to muscle through because they're somehow entitled to our time.

Regardless, people aren't necessarily asking for a "gatekeeper." A parse simply holds everyone accountable. If you're a Samurai pulling 3,500 DPS, you have no business being in Tsukiyomi EX. You're a complete liability to everyone else, especially in a farm party. That denotes someone who is simply trying to leech off other people's effort.

Yeah see the wrong hands are the problem.. they seem to be more frequent.

That simply isn't true. You may hear more about toxic example, but if used that as a basis, FFXIV is in dire states and ready to shut down at any moment. Put simply, people always talk about negative things more than positive. You can have a hundred people use a parse as intended, and be pretty chill about it. Then one jerk comes along and they're the only person who will get any attention. Why? Drama is more interesting to discuss. There isn't much discussion to be had from a positive experience, which is why they're less likely to occur. A prime example of this is Ultimate clears. Some groups post their clear video on reddit and see no more than ten posts and a couple likes. Create another decrying Ultimate as a waste of resources and you'll see hundreds of comments in a matter of hours.

Parsers work in a similar fashion. In fact, from a purely anecdotal experience, I have see more toxicity from people clearly not using a parser than I ever have people who do run one. And in the cases where they outright admit to using a parse, they aren't rude. Meanwhile, I've had DPS bitch incessantly about low damage only to glance over and see I'm out-dpsing them on Warrior. Perhaps my favourite instance is a Samurai who called a friend and I "shit" when said friend said "Okay. I think I'm out. Some people clearly don't know the fight." This was after our third wipe. She was doing almost double his damage with only a slightly higher ilvl. She was actually doing double the Dragoon's damage. Meanwhile, I wasn't too far behind her. And I was at a lower ilvl. But Mr. Samurai here thought he was amazing.

A parser wouldn't make him a jerk. He already was one.

[RiyahArp]

If they cannot beat this hypothetical gatekeeper, they have no business joining parties for that piece of content. You acknowledge they lack the skill outright and may struggle. Why is it because who don't lack said skill obligated to carry this person through content?

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

If the gatekeeper has several mechanics from the following raid tier, then you're actually preparing people for them ahead of time, because if you can execute them on the gatekeeper, you can execute them on the raids themselves.

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

It's no big deal for the person being carried. After all, they're not the ones making an effort to compensate for the person not giving their all in the fight. If such a person was in one of those statics that prioritize loot based on necessity and performance, it would take a while till that person got ahold of a gear piece.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

You also have people complaining that a MSQ fight easier than most dungeon bosses is too hard, so it's not like it's just one side at fault here. Plus that's on SE to fix, not people to endure.

[RiyahArp]

If the gatekeeper has several mechanics from the following raid tier, then you're actually preparing people for them ahead of time, because if you can execute them on the gatekeeper, you can execute them on the raids themselves.

then why do you need the gatekeeper? Generally it has to be a lesser or different check, or then the fight is just a formality. It also has to be hard n itself. I also don't think knowledge transfers over as much, each fight will always be unique even if the base mechanics are borrowed.

It's no big deal for the person being carried. After all, they're not the ones making an effort to compensate for the person not giving their all in the fight. If such a person was in one of those statics that prioritize loot based on necessity and performance, it would take a while till that person got ahold of a gear piece

You compensate for each other. You don't view people like that, you invest in them. If you view them as burdens, well guess what, one day its your turn to be viewed as one because you suck at a particular fight this time, or your job is unoptimal, or new guy is better than you.

You also have people complaining that a MSQ fight easier than most dungeon bosses is too hard, so it's not like it's just one side at fault here. Plus that's on SE to fix, not people to endure.

The people who complain about those legitimately have problems with the game that story fights are all they can do. And the complaint is about unexpected difficulty. And the sheer griping about others who are lesser skilled gets old considering how little they affect you.

[KaivaC]

then why do you need the gatekeeper? Generally it has to be a lesser or different check, or then the fight is just a formality.

Pretty sure the answer to this was said a page or two ago. To check to see if you are skilled enough to clear it and be ready for the next fight. If a player isn't skilled enough to clear the gatekeeper, then they have no business whatsoever going into the last fight. Currently, V11N is a great gatekeeper. If, after a few pulls and learning the mechanics, you are not skilled enough to deal with Larboard/Starboard, dealing with the Duty Action, and dropping your puddles while avoiding Flamethrower or a Rocket Punch, then you need to work on that, and generally have no business touching higher skill tiers, which would be Savage.

You can lie on the floor for all of it, pass it, and then get savage after beating 12. So no, it isn't. The larboard thing can even be ignored with the right classes; i can soak both hits as healer because i have 44k hp and just heal myself in between hits; the 2 def down stacks wont kill you unless you mess up far easier mechanics. A gatekeeper will be much harder than that, though.

Gonna add this in, even though I hit my post limit. If a player cannot comfortably dodge larboard/starboard, dies to it in conditions where the boss isn't being moved around, and then tell themselves that they are good enough to move on to a stronger fight, then that player is a detriment to their party, and likely candidates to be carried. Players are still getting killed by that mechanic, even with reminders being sent. Players are still getting hit by the rocket punch. Players who have run this fight multiple times, and still are not able to avoid dying in good conditions - dying due to their own failure to successfully complete mechanics.

The point is not to survive - the point is that if, in good conditions, you cannot stop dying to things like this, then you as a player (not you in particular Riyah) are a problem if you move into Savage with comfort that you survived. You've seen some of the threads - some players can't avoid dying to it, even with the solutions being explained to them (associate Larboard with boss attacking its left side). I wasn't here for HW's launches, but I was definitely here when Shinryu mopped the floor with complacent players. I was here when Tsuku stepped on some players who were used to being carried. You can't say gatekeepers will be stronger than that, when you have a history of not wanting harder content in the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

They are only delayed from joining parties they are not yet ready for. Whether this comes in the form of users demanding certain parse numbers, a Faust-esque equivalent or something else is irrelevant. If you aren't able to overcome this obstacle, you aren't ready. Removing said obstacle doesn't magically make those players able to approach the content. They're simply joining groups who will be none to happy by their poor performance. Regardless, this hypothetically serves no purpose to a parse discussion since parses don't really act as a "gatekeeper".

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

You know what gets really old? When I clearly label my PF "farm" and get someone who has utterly no idea what half the mechanics are, dies repeatedly and/or does comparable damage to a tank. The proper response is to not be an inconsiderate jerk. Why is it okay for you to join farm parties when you aren't capable of performing a decent rotation. We're not talking about a mistake here or there. Those happen to the best of us. We're taking about people who show little to no desire to improve yet expect everyone else to do the work. What do I lose? My time. Dog farms necessitate no less than 99 runs; more if you don't want to wait six months. Even if a minute is added because of consistent mistakes from one or two people, that means an extra Suzaku every 8-10 clears. In the end, I'll have added anywhere from ten to fifteen more runs, assuming I don't get a lucky roll all because someone couldn't be bothered to put in the effort to improve themselves before joining. I find hilariously ironic you accuse people unwilling to carry as being selfish yet don't apply that logic to the person expecting everyone else to compensate for their own laziness. Who's actually lazy in a scenario where the Warrior is out-DPSing a Samurai despite both having roughly equivalent ilvls?

Putting that aside, if I wanted to teach you how to do the fight, I would be in a learning party. The whole reason we have such a distinction is because people have already progressed beyond a certain point and want to progress further, not spending another hour or however longer teaching someone else. In the case of a farm party, you should know the whole fight. That is what farm parties are; farming the content. Not teaching someone mechanics they should already know. Do some people overreact in a learning party? Sure, but you're being deliberately hyperbolic like usually. I purposely used a farm party per my example, thus this shouldn't be your first time.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.