How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[TaranTatsuuchi]

The game just has no real way to show dps players they aren't playing to a reasonable standard...


We could bring up stone, sky, sea...
That is about the best the devs have put in to show how well a player is performing.

But, it lacks in feedback.
It's a binary pass/fail.
And it's optional.


There's little to no incentive for people to participate in it.
I believe it is supposed to be tuned to show if someone is ready for a piece of content or not.

Perhaps if sss was required to be passed to enter content...
True there's no mechanics to them...
But, if they can't manage the dps check on the dummies without mechanics, then they certainly can't pass the check while dealing with mechanics.

But, I suppose we can't have the game tell people they need to get good to participate...

[RiyahArp]

But, I suppose we can't have the game tell people they need to get good to participate...

There's actually a serious problem with this.

Let's say its a new tier. It requires you to beat a gatekeeping battle that's harder than SSS (because a lot of people think the dummies aren't a good measure. So maybe a mock battle or something.)

One guy beats it on day one, and gets to work on the tier because he's a good player who already raids.

One guy can't beat it at all, and stops raiding.

One guy takes a week to beat it.

The problem though is the last guy is going to be delayed enough that it might matter for progression. The weaker or newer they are, the harder it will be to find people. I mean, the people who beat it day one will be ahead of them and less likely to get newbies because finishing later my be a sign that you had issues with the dps check. It might be more of a discouragement than people think. It's add more teeth to the "two week problem," that it's harder to progress in stuff 2 weeks after a patch.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

There's actually a serious problem with this.

Let's say its a new tier. It requires you to beat a gatekeeping battle that's harder than SSS (because a lot of people think the dummies aren't a good measure. So maybe a mock battle or something.)

One guy beats it on day one, and gets to work on the tier because he's a good player who already raids.

One guy can't beat it at all, and stops raiding.

One guy takes a week to beat it.

The problem though is the last guy is going to be delayed enough that it might matter for progression. The weaker or newer they are, the harder it will be to find people. I mean, the people who beat it day one will be ahead of them and less likely to get newbies because finishing later my be a sign that you had issues with the dps check. It might be more of a discouragement than people think. It's add more teeth to the "two week problem," that it's harder to progress in stuff 2 weeks after a patch.

I suppose the sss dummies for content could be released some time prior to the actual content release.
It's not like there's much to spoil apart from an idea of what the devs think the dps requirement would be.

[Legion88]

There's actually a serious problem with this.

Let's say its a new tier. It requires you to beat a gatekeeping battle that's harder than SSS (because a lot of people think the dummies aren't a good measure. So maybe a mock battle or something.)

One guy beats it on day one, and gets to work on the tier because he's a good player who already raids.

One guy can't beat it at all, and stops raiding.

One guy takes a week to beat it.

The problem though is the last guy is going to be delayed enough that it might matter for progression. The weaker or newer they are, the harder it will be to find people. I mean, the people who beat it day one will be ahead of them and less likely to get newbies because finishing later my be a sign that you had issues with the dps check. It might be more of a discouragement than people think. It's add more teeth to the "two week problem," that it's harder to progress in stuff 2 weeks after a patch.

So you say we also schould loosen the min ilvl, because some people could be behind in gearing up?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem though is the last guy is going to be delayed enough that it might matter for progression. The weaker or newer they are, the harder it will be to find people. I mean, the people who beat it day one will be ahead of them and less likely to get newbies because finishing later my be a sign that you had issues with the dps check. It might be more of a discouragement than people think. It's add more teeth to the "two week problem," that it's harder to progress in stuff 2 weeks after a patch.

Except good raiders are far more accommodating than you believe. A good player knows the difference between gear discrepancy and skill. This is among the reasons we laugh at bloated ilvl requirements in PF because that isn't a skill check. One of the first things I do whenever I see someone doing awful DPS is check their gear to see if that's an issue. If it proves to be significantly lower, I'm more accepting because that isn't necessarily their fault. See, this is the benefit of FFlogs and analysis. You can easily check what people are doing and see why their damage is so low. Likewise, it's what good groups do to check if someone's numbers are legit or balance padded. Many hardcore groups won't even look at you if you have nothing but balance padded oranges. Those parsers may have been 80% otherwise, which is still a good number, but they don't trust you since you weren't upfront about it.

What you've described is precisely why people want parsers. They allow us to analyse. Now that doesn't mean some people won't be idiots and look at a i350 Samurai and mock them, but that isn't unique to FFXIV or gaming. There will always be idiots in everything. You don't blame or ban the tool because someone misuses it. If we did, well, shut down the Internet because heaven knows that gets abused on a daily basis.

Of course, this doesn't mean you ca waltz into any party you fancy or that ilvl requirements are inherently bad. There comes a point where a bigger enough ilvl gap will be a hindrance. In such a scenario, it falls on the player to remedy this. If that means waiting several weeks to get Genesis gear, c'est la vie.

[RiyahArp]

Except good raiders are far more accommodating than you believe..

That's not my point. It can't be a gear check, because the issue people want gatekeeping fights for is not gear, but skill. And if they don't have the skill to beat it on launch, they need to practice till they can or they can't enter the instance. If they need to rely on better gear to beat the challenge, then it will be too late. You won't be able to be understanding, the gatekeeper will keep them out of the fight. The point is that with a gatekeeper like this, it will delay people from entering to prevent that. And by then, there won't be people who need newbies.

[Legion88]

That's not my point. It can't be a gear check, because the issue people want gatekeeping fights for is not gear, but skill. And if they don't have the skill to beat it on launch, they need to practice till they can or they can't enter the instance. If they need to rely on better gear to beat the challenge, then it will be too late. You won't be able to be understanding, the gatekeeper will keep them out of the fight. The point is that with a gatekeeper like this, it will delay people from entering to prevent that. And by then, there won't be people who need newbies.

You misunderstand what a gatekeeper is.
The gatekeeper makes sure noone can go further without the required skill, because people without this skill wont be able to do anything beyond that point.
The gatekeeper checks if you are skilled enough with this job to have a chance by your own and don't need someone else to carry you.

A gatekeeper has to check your knowledge of the jobs rotation by a simple DPS check, has to check your general knowledge of game mechanics, like telgraphed AoEs, one hit by them and you're out and he has to check your general skill by mixing this up over a couple of phases.

If you can't pass this simple checks you are in no way able to to anything beyond then participate but never contribute.

And don't forget, the content behind the gatekeeper is even harder then the gatekeeper himself.

[RiyahArp]

You misunderstand what a gatekeeper is.

No, i get it, but you are doing the classic error of assuming it is "simple." It's going to have to be hard enough to be a decent gatekeeper. That means a lot of people will struggle with it, more than you think. The danger is that it takes long enough that it makes it harder for people to get involved in the tier. Ask a ffxi vet how long it took them to beat ma'at, for example.

[Legion88]

No, i get it, but you are doing the classic error of assuming it is "simple." It's going to have to be hard enough to be a decent gatekeeper. That means a lot of people will struggle with it, more than you think. The danger is that it takes long enough that it makes it harder for people to get involved in the tier. Ask a ffxi vet how long it took them to beat ma'at, for example.

But if he can't beat the gatekeeper, he is not ready for the content behind, because the content is even harder as the gatekeeper himself.
So the gatekeeper would be the easiest part of the new tier, so like Faust in Alexander, but Faust only was a simple DPS check.

A gatekeeper wont let you pass if you don't understand your rotation well enough and you mess up basic mechanics and this means you're not ready for what comes behind.
And no, raiding means everyone has to contribute and not some will outbalance an inability.

[KaivaC]

That's not my point. It can't be a gear check, because the issue people want gatekeeping fights for is not gear, but skill. And if they don't have the skill to beat it on launch, they need to practice till they can or they can't enter the instance. If they need to rely on better gear to beat the challenge, then it will be too late. You won't be able to be understanding, the gatekeeper will keep them out of the fight. The point is that with a gatekeeper like this, it will delay people from entering to prevent that. And by then, there won't be people who need newbies.

...so if it's a matter of skill vs a gatekeeper, what's the issue?