How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Shurrikhan]

I agree with you, by and large, there would be no change. People are dicks, they always will be, this will never change. A dick with the power of a parser is going to be a dick regardless of if it is sanctioned by SE or not. My point is that I would much rather have the first alternative, hands down. I know I'm not an A rank tank, I know the numbers. My gear isn't valued at 14,000,000 and doesn't have 5 slots of materia. I mean, for god's sake, my 'main' is white mage....I'm tanking for the tank mounts...I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the finer points of dark knight...of course I'm not going to be putting out 5,000dps...I don't main the =censored= job in order to put the time and effort in to get 5,000dps

At least with the first option you have, I'm publicly shamed by verbal abuse. The other two allies sit on and watch like a circle gathering for a fight. Interesting to watch, but they aren't gonna get involved. The second options not only verbally abuses me, but publicly shames me with numbers as well. Now, the gathering crowd gets to side with the 'facts...' the numbers. Now...instead of potentially getting the griefer kicked for verbal abuse. The other two, are going to look at the numbers, and think 'Yea, he is bad...let's kick him.' Nevermind the fact that tank isn't my main. Forget the fact that I'm playing an off role that I don't often touch that much. Ignore the notion that all my money and gear goes to white mage, not dark night. Let's instead look at the numbers, and assume this is a dark knight main that is bad.

And all because I'm not an elite level, Teir 1, God moding O11S on Day two of release? I'm sorry I didn't learn how to godmode Dark Knight. All I wanted was the tank mounts...I didn't know I had to be an expert in all things tank now.

Also, I still want to know what the hell kind of world Shurrikan and Choir live in...because I guarentee you that is not how the second conversation would go down. Not with a stranger. It would be pretty much like the screenshot I gave in one of my posts, only with numbers generated from a legal parser. The saying 'Do something good, no one notices or cares. Do something bad, and the whole world will know.' comes to mind. If you aren't their expectations of tank/dps/healer, you will hear about it...and it will not be in the peacemaking combiya way you and other seem to like to fluff it.

While we may be in agreement insofar as you mention, I feel like we retain a fundamental disagreement. Or, a few, actually:

1. In my (obviously anecdotal) experience, and that of every friend I've discussed this with (they're probably pretty damn tired of me "taking the forums home with me" at this point), people are just as likely to kick or berate based on suspicion as fact.
   
   
2. No one expects you to be god tier. Because those who feel obliged to improve themselves are the most frequent parsers at the moment, there is a slight bias when considering their own performance towards at least the skill level of those they generally party with. However, they rarely ever apply this to, say, DF, where the expectation is to be "passably competent". Unless you're beneath that, no one's going to take the effort to comment on your performance unless it effort required to make improvement, given the relatively small chance a random person will listen to the unsolicited advice without becoming hostile, is proportionately well less than the benefit obtainable. (In other words, they'd likely mention to you no more than that they can Clemency themselves during Req on AoEs so you can keep Gravity spamming or that you can soak the mobs in water in order to remove their damage resistance buff.)
   
   
3. That "world" is simply one where you often meet people largely like oneself (likely coincidental/perceptual in my case), and tend to form something a community from those likable people and experiences. I offer advice if I'm certain I know something that could be useful and highly suspect that the recipient will be open to that advice. In return, I've learned a lot from others, sometimes just in the course of DF runs (back in the day).
   
   That's not to say that I don't run into princess healers or the occasional troll or tank trying to hold the group hostage, but a third of said healers I've also unmade through gradual challenge and encouragement over the run and most of my groups were fine with just no-tanking the dungeon as a matter of challenge/spite and it's easy enough to ignore a single troll (basically, until there's a pair who can kick you on a whim just before the last boss, which then feels oppressive the whole run by sheer latent threat). Going in as a tank-healer pair, a friend and I have often outperformed the DPS. Sometimes they're receptive to advice, given between GCDs when APM is low; sometimes not. Oftentimes the goal is to at least get them up to our performance, diminishing our own chances in the hidden friendly competition bit by bit until we've failed if we haven't... lost. The conversation model I gave in the second was much more exasperated than most I've run into. You can call it a novel outlook, but it's one that was has happened modeled to me several times since I've started XIV.
   
   I've had my share of unfair kicks, too. Three times now I've been kicked from a run just before the last boss. In only one of them had there even been words exchanged beforehand.
   
   tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

EDIT:

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance. If one doesn't have time to run a test tens of times, it's already often used in order to form a clearer comparison between, say, openers (where the actual parsing may be necessary over pure theory-crafting if, say, latency or the resultant clipping will be a factor in the outcome).

[Arrius]

These are the exact reasons why it must be personal-only WITHOUT any option to allow others to see your parses.

You got that already. It's called Stone, Sea, Sky. People even made a website for it so you can quickly determine how much DPS you do based on the remaining time and remaining % the training dummy has.

[RiyahArp]

If people didn't make mountains out of molehills so much, it probably would be okay. They gripe about jobs being useless if they do less than 2% under other jobs in optimal situations, or they complain about casuals when the worst thing that happens in 90% of runs is a dungeon takes 20 minutes instead of fifteen. They not only clear savage content, they find that unfulfilling and must rank people who do via a third party website by DPS, padding the DPS at the top by using specific comps and risky play. I don't think that's a particularly healthy culture to spread downwards through making parsers available to everyone and usuable without penalty.

[Bahati]

Not True. Parsing is rampant in extreme and savage content as well. So much so that there is a website that publishes it for those that want to see and be ranked. You can create an account, and opt out of your information being seen, but chances are, if you've done an extreme or savage, your character's name is on here somewhere. https://www.fflogs.com/

In fact, it's not uncommon for people to decide if they want to raid with you, based on this information. If you aren't on there cause you opted out, they won't raid with you. Or, if your dps is not to their liking, same deal. This is absolutely true with statics recruiting, and I would venture to guess true to a lesser extend in random savage pugs and extremes as well. Example: Person suspects you are doing bad, person goes to above website to search for you, person either A) finds parsed information on you, and makes a decision on if you are bad, or B) doesn't find information, assumes you opted out, and assumes you are bad.

Obviously I am referring to an official in-game parser (which is only found in PVP at this time) not the outside site which is most certainly against ToS. I'm not disagreeing with you but let's all remember this game never intended for everyone else to know anyone else's "numbers" and scores. That is an under the table activity that is against the rules.

[Fhaerron]

Lol guys are you seriously still wasting time and energy on this?
Just let the anti people have their say on the forums.
We have our functional parser mod and FFlogs for for more in depth analyzing anyway, and For our friends on PS4, we can parse for them.
Who cares what the anti people say on the forums?

[thegreatonemal]

How many times must we go over this.

A parser is useless fflogs is what makes parsers useful. Unless SE makes an fflogs like system it will be useless.

Unless you are trying to speed run any piece of content fllogs and parsers are useless. nothing in this game requires you to optimize your dps down to a gcd This game is not balanced like that. so having a parser and fflogs like program become official just invites a bunch of toxic issue for the very small positive of helping everyone speedrun if they wish.

A 4 digit number at the end of a fight tells you nothing useful not how to improve it or even how you got it.

[RuleofThree]

tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

Will just have to take your word for it, and envy you then. Cause the 'circle' I'm in is cold, and unforgiving. You offer help, such as my example of spending 5 hours helping a group of seven past Shinryu Extreme, and you don't even get acknowledged for it. You make a mistake, and you don't hear the end of it until you either voluntarily leave, or they kick you. But this is digressing, another issue entirely involving one's thoughts on the community as a whole...not what this thread is about.

I still remain by the notion that an official parser isn't going to do anything. It will just give people a reason to talk about numbers openly in the game - if not yours, then brag or lie about their own, and at the end of the day, even if an ingame parser was added, people will still just use ACT, as it will offer the numbers of those they feel are 'bads.' Either way, it's a boiling pot for bullying when put in the wrong hands. Once agaim I am for the notion of people using parsers. But I think it should remain third party, and behind closed doors. Something to remain along the liness of speculating someone is parsing, but never truly knowing.

[SenorPatty]

Lol guys are you seriously still wasting time and energy on this?
Just let the anti people have their say on the forums.
We have our functional parser mod and FFlogs for for more in depth analyzing anyway, and For our friends on PS4, we can parse for them.
Who cares what the anti people say on the forums?

To be completely fair, even if the OP had made a simple request to have parsers for ps4 without asking if it would be toxic, it would've devolved into this.

I mean, there's already one of the usual suspects riding the anti-raiders agenda train in this thread and we're already seeing the inevitable rise of the slugfest in small doses so yeah...

[Legion88]

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance.

This is the best solution, so you can easily say how good someone performes on his level of gear, because potency per second doesn't really change with gear, except of SkS and SpS based jobs.
But even this is only a minor inconsistence.
With just potency parsing it is more or less easy to compare the performance, because performance is not DPS including crit luck etc., it's the execution of the rotation.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I really rather people not see how garbage I am because I already know I'm garbage. >> At least without a parser, they can't tell 100% just how awful I am. |: I don't mind if I could see my own or if people could see their own, but I don't like other people seeing my over all performance number/statistics wise and then judging me and comparing me to others based on that. I think it has a lot of potential for bullying/harassment/exclusion/little-to-no room for growth if consistently excluded, etc.

Why not try and become less garbage then? I don't mean this in a hostile fashion, it's a legitimate question and I'm genuinely curious.

I mean, do you truly believe that you should receive the same rewards/consideration as someone who puts more effort in/is more skilled?

Do you echo that sentiment in the real world? If not, that's awfully hypocritical.

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT.

Neither of you were really toxic IMO, but if I had to stretch my personal definition I'd argue you were worse (if I am reading it right). You deliberately dragged the fight out with the intent to antagonize another player who had asked you to just reset. Him indicating that you have weak gear/no materia and not having any clears (which I assume is him looking you up on FFLogs) is not toxic, if anything it appears to be an objective factual statement regardless of its negative connotation.

You then assume this player is running ACT based on some arbitrary metric that you yourself developed with no supporting evidence, and then used that to broadly paint an entire subset of players who use the tool successfully and publicly with no issue as toxic.

Now mind you - I'd have supported you trying to solo it, unless it was at a very high HP %, which you indicated it was not.