How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Shurrikhan]

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT. Imagine how scathing this would be if an in game parser was added, and now nothing is holding him back. Not only can he be a dick, but he can be a dick, and post numbers. For context, the griefer died to ignoring mechanics on Burn's first boss. White mage died trying to slow res him, and got clipped by AoE in process. He was calling for me to die, so we can reset. I didn't, cause boss was near dead, and I thought I had a chance, could use his long AoE casts to heal up with souleater. Got him down to from 5% to 2%, with him trolling me all the while.

I'd rather not give him an in game parser, so he can harass with numbers legitimately as well.

And how would that harassment change?

Without (official) parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right? And you should feel bad. Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else."
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"Hardly felt like it. Your threat was *really* low even without using Diversion."
"Uhh, maybe because I died. You dropped that freeze AoE on me, remember?"
"No, I didn't. And it was low even before that. And the Bard half his aggro, twice, after I rezzed you, and you still never got close to catching up."
"Whatever man."
"Whatever? Your rotation must be ****."
"And?"
"Learn your class. Before you queue into stuff. You've had 70 levels to learn it, so quit procrastinating."
"Dude, I know my class. Why don't you play your own?"
"Mate, I play mine and yours and all the others. And a lot better than you do. Probably most people can say as much."
"Prove it. I'm waiting with a GM ticket."
"I'm not about to get into that. Just.... please... learn your damn class."

With parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right?"
"I mean, I have the same data you do, so... sure?"
"Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else?"
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"You shouldn't be getting such low numbers in that case... Your rotation has to be seriously off."
"And I'm working on it. But it's hard for me to open with my CDs still on... CD, from the AoE pull before boss."
"You've got other ways to ramp up quickly than PB, man."
"K, but it's still confusing for me. My damage is all over the place. I can't do anything with what's completely random based on the run."
"Look, just... look at your toolkit and breakpoints. The rest of us are making do just fine. You've got Form Shift and Riddle of Wind. Use em. If you can't get used to it in dungeons, pretend your cooldowns aren't ready yet when punching a dummy and check your numbers that way..."
"Yeah, screw you too, man."
"Screw you too."
[Message blocked.]

Tbh, people tend to be more dogged when there's a chance for ambiguity, either in the verity of their claim or in the target's knowing its "truth". All else being the same, people are less likely to start a conversation, berating or merely critical, with someone they can tell is underperforming by choice. Whether they suck themselves into harassment thereafter or not is probably much the same, but at least the frequency is reduced a bit. And let's not forget we already have parsers, and anyone likely to go off on an underperformer as enabled solely by a metric making detection more convenient is already going to be doing so.

That's not to say you can't have aggressors without parsers. Not remotely. I had someone go off for my rotational choices as Monk despite his being outperformed by every member of our 3-of-4 roulette premade (yes, the tank and healer, too).

Actually, every player who's ever gone off at me or a friend in my party has done so from... not a great standing. When a new healer thought he had screwed up and I said we simply didn't have the damage to do the pull (as evidenced by the fact that nothing was even half dead by the time I'd exhausted every single CD) and I shouldn't have bit off so much--that he was doing great and I just need to stop clinging to how I run with friends--the two dps bffs proceeded to harass me more than fight for the remainder of the run. And then for the ~20 minutes after the run until I blocked them.

I've yet to see numbers come up even in critical speech outside of raids. Where it's come up, it's either been about mechanics, complete lack of AoE skill usage in AoE situations, lack of external toolkit usage (Tactician, Refresh, Goad), or has gone so far as to mention exactly what's wrong whilst offering advice.

"Hey. How am I doing, if anyone's got a parser?" on the other hand? At least a dozen times. Usually each really friendly runs. Information and responsibility =/= toxicity. If anything... it tends to foster community. Just, a community that prides itself on helpfulness rather than the right to burden others (because their 1/n portion of the composition must surely be worth the rights of all n combined).

[RuleofThree]

And how would that harassment change?

Without (official) parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right? And you should feel bad. Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else."
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"Hardly felt like it. Your threat was *really* low even without using Diversion."
"Uhh, maybe because I died. You dropped that freeze AoE on me, remember?"
"No, I didn't. And it was low even before that. And the Bard half his aggro, twice, after I rezzed you, and you still never got close to catching up."
"Whatever man."
"Whatever? Your rotation must be ****."
"And?"
"Learn your class. Before you queue into stuff. You've had 70 levels to learn it, so quit procrastinating."
"Dude, I know my class. Why don't you play your own?"
"Mate, I play mine and yours and all the others. And a lot better than you do. Probably most people can say as much."
"Prove it. I'm waiting with a GM ticket."
"I'm not about to get into that. Just.... please... learn your damn class."

With parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right?"
"I mean, I have the same data you do, so... sure?"
"Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else?"
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"You shouldn't be getting such low numbers in that case... Your rotation has to be seriously off."
"And I'm working on it. But it's hard for me to open with my CDs still on... CD, from the AoE pull before boss."
"You've got other ways to ramp up quickly than PB, man."
"K, but it's still confusing for me. My damage is all over the place. I can't do anything with what's completely random based on the run."
"Look, just... look at your toolkit and breakpoints. The rest of us are making do just fine. You've got Form Shift and Riddle of Wind. Use em. If you can't get used to it in dungeons, pretend your cooldowns aren't ready yet when punching a dummy and check your numbers that way..."
"Yeah, screw you too, man."
"Screw you too."
[Message blocked.]

Tbh, people tend to be more dogged when there's a chance for ambiguity, either in the verity of their claim or in the target's knowing its "truth". All else being the same, people are less likely to start a conversation, berating or merely critical, with someone they can tell is underperforming by choice. Whether they suck themselves into harassment thereafter or not is probably much the same, but at least the frequency is reduced a bit. And let's not forget we already have parsers, and anyone likely to go off on an underperformer as enabled solely by a metric making detection more convenient is already going to be doing so.

That's not to say you can't have aggressors without parsers. Not remotely. I had someone go off for my rotational choices as Monk despite his being outperformed by every member of our 3-of-4 roulette premade (yes, the tank and healer, too).

Actually, every player who's ever gone off at me or a friend in my party has done so from... not a great standing. When a new healer thought he had screwed up and I said we simply didn't have the damage to do the pull (as evidenced by the fact that nothing was even half dead by the time I'd exhausted every single CD) and I shouldn't have bit off so much--that he was doing great and I just need to stop clinging to how I run with friends--the two dps bffs proceeded to harass me more than fight for the remainder of the run. And then for the ~20 minutes after the run until I blocked them.

I've yet to see numbers come up even in critical speech outside of raids. Where it's come up, it's either been about mechanics, complete lack of AoE skill usage in AoE situations, lack of external toolkit usage (Tactician, Refresh, Goad), or has gone so far as to mention exactly what's wrong whilst offering advice.

"Hey. How am I doing, if anyone's got a parser?" on the other hand? At least a dozen times. Usually each really friendly runs. Information and responsibility =/= toxicity. If anything... it tends to foster community. Just, a community that prides itself on helpfulness rather than the right to burden others (because their 1/n portion of the composition must surely be worth the rights of all n combined).

I agree with you, by and large, there would be no change. People are dicks, they always will be, this will never change. A dick with the power of a parser is going to be a dick regardless of if it is sanctioned by SE or not. My point is that I would much rather have the first alternative, hands down. I know I'm not an A rank tank, I know the numbers. My gear isn't valued at 14,000,000 and doesn't have 5 slots of materia. I mean, for god's sake, my 'main' is white mage....I'm tanking for the tank mounts...I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the finer points of dark knight...of course I'm not going to be putting out 5,000dps...I don't main the =censored= job in order to put the time and effort in to get 5,000dps

At least with the first option you have, I'm publicly shamed by verbal abuse. The other two allies sit on and watch like a circle gathering for a fight. Interesting to watch, but they aren't gonna get involved. The second options not only verbally abuses me, but publicly shames me with numbers as well. Now, the gathering crowd gets to side with the 'facts...' the numbers. Now...instead of potentially getting the griefer kicked for verbal abuse. The other two, are going to look at the numbers, and think 'Yea, he is bad...let's kick him.' Nevermind the fact that tank isn't my main. Forget the fact that I'm playing an off role that I don't often touch that much. Ignore the notion that all my money and gear goes to white mage, not dark night. Let's instead look at the numbers, and assume this is a dark knight main that is bad.

And all because I'm not an elite level, Teir 1, God moding O11S on Day two of release? I'm sorry I didn't learn how to godmode Dark Knight. All I wanted was the tank mounts...I didn't know I had to be an expert in all things tank now.

Also, I still want to know what the hell kind of world Shurrikan and Choir live in...because I guarentee you that is not how the second conversation would go down. Not with a stranger. It would be pretty much like the screenshot I gave in one of my posts, only with numbers generated from a legal parser. The saying 'Do something good, no one notices or cares. Do something bad, and the whole world will know.' comes to mind. If you aren't their expectations of tank/dps/healer, you will hear about it...and it will not be in the peacemaking combiya way you and other seem to like to fluff it.

[Legion88]

I agree with you, by and large, there would be no change. People are dicks, they always will be, this will never change. A dick with the power of a parser is going to be a dick regardless of if it is sanctioned by SE or not. My point is that I would much rather have the first alternative, hands down. I know I'm not an A rank tank, I know the numbers. My gear isn't valued at 14,000,000 and doesn't have 5 slots of materia. I mean, for god's sake, my 'main' is white mage....I'm tanking for the tank mounts...I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the finer points of dark knight...of course I'm not going to be putting out 5,000dps...I don't main the =censored= job in order to put the time and effort in to get 5,000dps

At least with the first option you have, I'm publicly shamed by verbal abuse. The other two allies sit on and watch like a circle gathering for a fight. Interesting to watch, but they aren't gonna get involved. The second options not only verbally abuses me, but publicly shames me with numbers as well. Now, the gathering crowd gets to side with the 'facts...' the numbers. Now...instead of potentially getting the griefer kicked for verbal abuse. The other two, are going to look at the numbers, and think 'Yea, he is bad...let's kick him.'

And all because I'm not an elite level, Teir 1, God moding O11S on Day two of release? I'm sorry I didn't learn how to godmode Dark Knight. All I wanted was the tank mounts...I didn't know I had to be an expert in all things tank now.

And if the rest of the party is at least not stupid they know how gear and experience works and what verbal abuse is.
So they schould side with you and not the abuser.
But hey, anonymity in the internet and all are jerks if they don't have to face responsibility, right?

[RuleofThree]

And if the rest of the party is at least not stupid they know how gear and experience works and what verbal abuse is.
So they schould side with you and not the abuser.
But hey, anonymity in the internet and all are jerks if they don't have to face responsibility, right?

You guys sure like to cling to the 'responsibility' argument a lot. I mean, I'm assuming you read the rest of the post, particularly the parts declaring that I am not a masterlist dark knight, and that while I drop tank stance, and follow proper rotation protocol, I don't have the finer nuances of weaving and optimization down to a fine toothed comb. This is, in effect, taking responsibility for me being a 'mediocre at best' dark knight.

But hey, I guess taking responsibility means accepting your are not raid level in every job, and until you are, you can not run anything because...well...you're bad, and no one wants a bad person. I mean...the numbers say so...you are just....bad. So take responsibility...and get out.

I mean I will state again, and will continue to do so ad nausea, because people seem to ignore this fact about me: I am for the use of parsers. I think the current stance SE has of "Don't ask don't tell. Out of sight out of Mind. As we don't see you abusing it, you can use ACT as a third party." is perfectly fine. People like numbers. To be honest, I don't mind them as well. The majority of the arguments here that numbers can be seen as a way to improve is TRUE. Again I know I'm an 'ok' dark knight. I see my numbers...it's good enough to do dungeons, but shit for anything else.

I don't need some asshat rubbing this flaw of mine in my face as well. This is why parsers should remain third party, behind closed doors, don't ask don't tell like it is now. Because legalizing them opens up the availability for people to rub those flaws into your face without reprimand.

[Shurrikhan]

I agree with you, by and large, there would be no change. People are dicks, they always will be, this will never change. A dick with the power of a parser is going to be a dick regardless of if it is sanctioned by SE or not. My point is that I would much rather have the first alternative, hands down. I know I'm not an A rank tank, I know the numbers. My gear isn't valued at 14,000,000 and doesn't have 5 slots of materia. I mean, for god's sake, my 'main' is white mage....I'm tanking for the tank mounts...I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the finer points of dark knight...of course I'm not going to be putting out 5,000dps...I don't main the =censored= job in order to put the time and effort in to get 5,000dps

At least with the first option you have, I'm publicly shamed by verbal abuse. The other two allies sit on and watch like a circle gathering for a fight. Interesting to watch, but they aren't gonna get involved. The second options not only verbally abuses me, but publicly shames me with numbers as well. Now, the gathering crowd gets to side with the 'facts...' the numbers. Now...instead of potentially getting the griefer kicked for verbal abuse. The other two, are going to look at the numbers, and think 'Yea, he is bad...let's kick him.' Nevermind the fact that tank isn't my main. Forget the fact that I'm playing an off role that I don't often touch that much. Ignore the notion that all my money and gear goes to white mage, not dark night. Let's instead look at the numbers, and assume this is a dark knight main that is bad.

And all because I'm not an elite level, Teir 1, God moding O11S on Day two of release? I'm sorry I didn't learn how to godmode Dark Knight. All I wanted was the tank mounts...I didn't know I had to be an expert in all things tank now.

Also, I still want to know what the hell kind of world Shurrikan and Choir live in...because I guarentee you that is not how the second conversation would go down. Not with a stranger. It would be pretty much like the screenshot I gave in one of my posts, only with numbers generated from a legal parser. The saying 'Do something good, no one notices or cares. Do something bad, and the whole world will know.' comes to mind. If you aren't their expectations of tank/dps/healer, you will hear about it...and it will not be in the peacemaking combiya way you and other seem to like to fluff it.

While we may be in agreement insofar as you mention, I feel like we retain a fundamental disagreement. Or, a few, actually:

1. In my (obviously anecdotal) experience, and that of every friend I've discussed this with (they're probably pretty damn tired of me "taking the forums home with me" at this point), people are just as likely to kick or berate based on suspicion as fact.
   
   
2. No one expects you to be god tier. Because those who feel obliged to improve themselves are the most frequent parsers at the moment, there is a slight bias when considering their own performance towards at least the skill level of those they generally party with. However, they rarely ever apply this to, say, DF, where the expectation is to be "passably competent". Unless you're beneath that, no one's going to take the effort to comment on your performance unless it effort required to make improvement, given the relatively small chance a random person will listen to the unsolicited advice without becoming hostile, is proportionately well less than the benefit obtainable. (In other words, they'd likely mention to you no more than that they can Clemency themselves during Req on AoEs so you can keep Gravity spamming or that you can soak the mobs in water in order to remove their damage resistance buff.)
   
   
3. That "world" is simply one where you often meet people largely like oneself (likely coincidental/perceptual in my case), and tend to form something a community from those likable people and experiences. I offer advice if I'm certain I know something that could be useful and highly suspect that the recipient will be open to that advice. In return, I've learned a lot from others, sometimes just in the course of DF runs (back in the day).
   
   That's not to say that I don't run into princess healers or the occasional troll or tank trying to hold the group hostage, but a third of said healers I've also unmade through gradual challenge and encouragement over the run and most of my groups were fine with just no-tanking the dungeon as a matter of challenge/spite and it's easy enough to ignore a single troll (basically, until there's a pair who can kick you on a whim just before the last boss, which then feels oppressive the whole run by sheer latent threat). Going in as a tank-healer pair, a friend and I have often outperformed the DPS. Sometimes they're receptive to advice, given between GCDs when APM is low; sometimes not. Oftentimes the goal is to at least get them up to our performance, diminishing our own chances in the hidden friendly competition bit by bit until we've failed if we haven't... lost. The conversation model I gave in the second was much more exasperated than most I've run into. You can call it a novel outlook, but it's one that was has happened modeled to me several times since I've started XIV.
   
   I've had my share of unfair kicks, too. Three times now I've been kicked from a run just before the last boss. In only one of them had there even been words exchanged beforehand.
   
   tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

EDIT:

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance. If one doesn't have time to run a test tens of times, it's already often used in order to form a clearer comparison between, say, openers (where the actual parsing may be necessary over pure theory-crafting if, say, latency or the resultant clipping will be a factor in the outcome).

[RuleofThree]

tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

Will just have to take your word for it, and envy you then. Cause the 'circle' I'm in is cold, and unforgiving. You offer help, such as my example of spending 5 hours helping a group of seven past Shinryu Extreme, and you don't even get acknowledged for it. You make a mistake, and you don't hear the end of it until you either voluntarily leave, or they kick you. But this is digressing, another issue entirely involving one's thoughts on the community as a whole...not what this thread is about.

I still remain by the notion that an official parser isn't going to do anything. It will just give people a reason to talk about numbers openly in the game - if not yours, then brag or lie about their own, and at the end of the day, even if an ingame parser was added, people will still just use ACT, as it will offer the numbers of those they feel are 'bads.' Either way, it's a boiling pot for bullying when put in the wrong hands. Once agaim I am for the notion of people using parsers. But I think it should remain third party, and behind closed doors. Something to remain along the liness of speculating someone is parsing, but never truly knowing.

[Legion88]

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance.

This is the best solution, so you can easily say how good someone performes on his level of gear, because potency per second doesn't really change with gear, except of SkS and SpS based jobs.
But even this is only a minor inconsistence.
With just potency parsing it is more or less easy to compare the performance, because performance is not DPS including crit luck etc., it's the execution of the rotation.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I really rather people not see how garbage I am because I already know I'm garbage. >> At least without a parser, they can't tell 100% just how awful I am. |: I don't mind if I could see my own or if people could see their own, but I don't like other people seeing my over all performance number/statistics wise and then judging me and comparing me to others based on that. I think it has a lot of potential for bullying/harassment/exclusion/little-to-no room for growth if consistently excluded, etc.

Why not try and become less garbage then? I don't mean this in a hostile fashion, it's a legitimate question and I'm genuinely curious.

I mean, do you truly believe that you should receive the same rewards/consideration as someone who puts more effort in/is more skilled?

Do you echo that sentiment in the real world? If not, that's awfully hypocritical.

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT.

Neither of you were really toxic IMO, but if I had to stretch my personal definition I'd argue you were worse (if I am reading it right). You deliberately dragged the fight out with the intent to antagonize another player who had asked you to just reset. Him indicating that you have weak gear/no materia and not having any clears (which I assume is him looking you up on FFLogs) is not toxic, if anything it appears to be an objective factual statement regardless of its negative connotation.

You then assume this player is running ACT based on some arbitrary metric that you yourself developed with no supporting evidence, and then used that to broadly paint an entire subset of players who use the tool successfully and publicly with no issue as toxic.

Now mind you - I'd have supported you trying to solo it, unless it was at a very high HP %, which you indicated it was not.

[RuleofThree]

Neither of you were really toxic IMO, but if I had to stretch my personal definition I'd argue you were worse (if I am reading it right). You deliberately dragged the fight out with the intent to antagonize another player who had asked you to just reset. Him indicating that you have weak gear/no materia and not having any clears (which I assume is him looking you up on FFLogs) is not toxic, if anything it appears to be an objective factual statement regardless of its negative connotation.

You then assume this player is running ACT based on some arbitrary metric that you yourself developed with no supporting evidence, and then used that to broadly paint an entire subset of players who use the tool successfully and publicly with no issue as toxic.

Now mind you - I'd have supported you trying to solo it, unless it was at a very high HP %, which you indicated it was not.

You are reading it right, but it's without context. Him telling me I have weak gear, no materia, and no clears was happing during my attempt to salvage the fight. His insinuations incited my threat to 'troll' the last thousand hp. That was never, nor ever would be my intentions. Soloing the last 5% of a boss, in my eyes, would be a thrill that would take a while for me to come down on...it so rarely happens...I wouldn't willingly mess that chance up for an asshat. When you are angered, you tend not to think clearly. I don't condone my response with regards to my first response, regret it even...but what's done is done.

And you made the very same assumption yourself. I mean, I guess it could stand the reason that he utilizes FFlogs for information, but doesn't actually have the parser...but that's a bit far fetched isn't it? You assumed he made the last comment based on looking at the FFlogs website, much like my assumption that he is using ACT himself...we will never truly know...but a bit of the pot calling the kettle black there.

And you are right, the definition of toxic is subjective. Personally? I'm not really a fan of having someone throw my obvious flaws in the face of everyone present. Everyone has the examine function, everyone can see that I don't spec out dark night, everyone knows I am iLevel 360 gear. Why bring it up, if but to be an asshat? I'm not a fan of being called 'utter garbage' and a 'waste of time' just because a website, of which I have opted out on showing information for, doesn't reveal information about me.

Regardless, he is right, I don't have a clear in the new savage. i took a haitus from this game since 4.1, and came back a week before 4.4 hit. I don't have access to 370 to get in to savage, and won't for at least a few months with SE's ridiculous 450 a week cap. I don't have the money to drop to get in to savage so quickly. But again, our definition of 'toxic' is different. Even if I did have a clear on savage, and did opt in for my character to show on FFlogs...it would be as white mage, which would be completely irrelavent information to my undergeared dark knight. If anything it would show him why I have an undergeared dark knight....I focus on white mage.

[Shurrikhan]

This is the best solution, so you can easily say how good someone performes on his level of gear, because potency per second doesn't really change with gear, except of SkS and SpS based jobs.
But even this is only a minor inconsistence.
With just potency parsing it is more or less easy to compare the performance, because performance is not DPS including crit luck etc., it's the execution of the rotation.

Yup. It's just clean, precise action->reward. No RNG. Very little gear impact. Better for personal parsing, honestly. WAY better for broad parsing. I absolutely love the option when it or its likeness is given.