How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[van_arn]

My guess is there will be "must have in-game parse of XXX or high. Show screenshot of proof or kick" which...sure, comes down to gameplay preferences, but people are technically already doing that with their not-technically-allowed parsing methods. To reiterate a previous post, were we to get one in game, I would hope that it would be something akin to the Duty Recorder where all members have to opt in, so there's a clear concent among people who want to be parsed (like those who want to improve/handle difficult raid tiers) and those who are fine as long as things get done without issues (like your duty roulettes and other casual dungeons).

Frankly, this is preferable to the autoattacking dragoon that expects df to carry them through the game first try otherwise everyone's an elitist.

Or the blm that can't 50% menagerie SSS expecting a carry through pf savage.

I have witnessed both.

[Melichoir]

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

[Maeka]

People either consciously or subconsciously are always trying to rank themselves against others. Because of that, they will tend to make decisions about a person only by their numbers and not any other factor. When I played wow and had a parser, I found myself subconsciously saying this person is bad because they are doing half the dps of the other dps. When I got away from parsers by coming here, I adopted this philosophy: If the boss is dead, we had fun, got our goodies and had a good time... who cares what they parsed.uou rise and fall as a team, there are more than enough tools to identify payers having a problem in this game.

If we really want an official parser, let’s try this: Create the Hall of the Raider and have that room use the official parser while you work on the dummy with RNG events happening around you. You can work on your rotation while dealing with random mechanics. They wouldn’t be too intense but the random mechanics would simulate a raiding run to a degree.

While I agree with this, there are times that we will struggle and struggle and struggle through fights, and I'm scratching my head wondering why... is one of the DPS not doing their job? Why is this so hard when we all appear to have decent gear judging from our health meters?

And then I can get that someone might go "am *I* the one missing cooldowns and having a terrible rotation?"

So yes, I'd like to have a private-only DPS meter so I could actually figure out how to do things better on my own.

[Maeka]

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

Depends on the boss too.

Had a warrior stay in DPS stance on Mist Dragon, and lemme tell you, I wish I could reach through the screen and click his Defiance button, seriously.

I have enough problems with that stupid dragon, I don't need a tank taking 20% more damage because he's in DPS stance.

[Melichoir]

There are considerations, so Ill admit that.

However, tank stance on all the time should not be the default mindset. If your healer is struggling really hard, yeah, tank stance may be a good option. If youre extremely undergeared and unfamiliar with the class, yes, tank stance is a solution to that problem. It should not be the go to solution in every case. Which is the point Im trying (but failing) to make.

This game, as it stands, is not designed for "Tank stance all night long". Its designed for certain things and situations, but broadly, you should be in DPS stance doing dps, and if necessary using tank stance as a cooldown for busters. Again, theres a lot of factors at play here. This will also mean yes, healers will have to get better, and DPS will have to to.

As an example: Tank is decently geared, and understands their class and role, and is doing boss mechanics 100% correctly. If theyre still dying, it is because of one of a few reasons:

1) Healer is not great geared and is struggling
2) Healer does not know their class effectively to work well with the tank
3) Healer is over taxed due to DPS eating every piece of damage and not trying to help with mitigation.

Two of the three of those issues can be improved by better players. DPS who mitigate damage/do mechanics right to reduce healing necessary, and healers who better understand their class to work well and more efficiently during heal intensive fights. This is why I think we need to start promoting the idea players need to improve, and stop making excuses. That means tnaks need to learn stance dancing and their class decently, DPS need to learn threat management and how not to eat damage, healers need to be better about how to manage heals on tanks and dps.

Im not saying every healer is a baddy, or dps, or tank. Rather among the more casual base, there is a bit of apathy towards the idea of learning to be a mean efficient healer/dps/tank. And if we want to stop having "baddies" in our groups, then we need to start promoting the idea of people getting better. So yeah, in the terms of tanking, that means not relying on tank stance as your bread and butter.

[Maeka]

Yeah, Tank/DPS stance should be a choice you make, depending on the situation.

Even in Mist Dragon, switching to DPS when he brings out the heads is awesome. Staying in Tank Stance is not, especially if we eat the AoE because the heads didn't die fast enough.

But, from what I see a lot of tanks doing, it's "Always DPS Stance on Boss, All the Time" and I've even seen a couple tanks doing it on Mist Dragon and also the poo monster at the end of Mocianne's. Slime gets hit twice and is about to explode.... tank has DPS stance on. Awesome.

[Floortank]

Frankly, this is preferable to the autoattacking dragoon that expects df to carry them through the game first try otherwise everyone's an elitist.

Or the blm that can't 50% menagerie SSS expecting a carry through pf savage.

I have witnessed both.

You were able to observe both without a parser. Way to torpedo your own argument.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

You were able to observe both without a parser. Way to torpedo your own argument.

Am I the only one who thinks half the time you don't even understand what you're replying to?

[RuleofThree]

I just can't leave it alone...

Ill give you that Im being a touch overzealous, but I have my reasons. Saying people should stay in tank stance cause theyre not comfortable tanking is promoting bad tanks, or that they need high lvl gear to do the content. The game allows you to do something, and you choosing not to do it cause its easier for you is making things harder for others.

That mentality works when you are doing extremes and savages. Of course you want people to pull their weight, cause that shit is mechanics a cut above the norm. But - and I feel I really need to stress this here....*ahem* THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CASUAL, AND DON'T DO SAVAGE OR EXTREME CONTENT. Just so you know, I have copied and pasted that bold and italicized remark, cause I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to say it again here soon.

If I am grinding the crap out of The Aetherochemical Research Facility because I need poetics, I could not give two cents if the tank never leaves tank stance. I could not give to cents if he does not ignore the turrets on the first boss, I could not give two cents if he does Hard > Spinning > Power Slash over...and over...and over again. Why? Because even if we blitz through the dungeon, it's still 17-20 minutes of my time wasted in that horrible, horrible dungeon. I have not run it with max geared, balls to the wall elitists, but I know my personal best in there is 18:42, and my worst is 23:21. Yes...I have this written down, that's how much I run this for poetics. I honestly, hand to god, do not give two cents that because my tank was just spamming one combo, I had to spend 5 extra minutes in there. That five extra minutes would have just been spent queuing for another run through that abysmal place.



For the same reason I don't give to cents about it in any dungeon. (Focus on the word dungeon here. Again THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CASUAL, AND DON'T DO SAVAGE OR EXTREME CONTENT....I'm not talking about big boys and girls stuff here, I am talking casual, run of the mill, same crap different day, 4 person dungeons.) I could not care less how the tank is tanking, or if dps is following proper dps rotation protocol. I only care that the tank is alive to to tank stuff, and the dps are alive to do dps stuff, and that I get off my holies and my stones IVs. That's it...Don't care if they are weaving in oGCDs, or Popping Strength potions, or waiting to use Blackest night after the ball of mobs recover from stun. I just care about getting the dungeon done, because THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CASUAL, AND DON'T DO SAVAGE OR EXTREME CONTENT.

If I am in an extreme, or savage raid? I will do the best that I can do as a white mage, and can only assume that the tanks and dps are doing the same...because they are a cut above the rest..or at least striving to be. I am not advocating for people to be crap tanks (I am trying so hard not to use curse words...so hard), when I am in a savage or extreme, people want the cream of the crop, and will often times be brutally cold when they believe you aren't...so yea, to avoid being picked on like you were back in high school again, you best learn your job and how to play it. But for dungeons...only the elitest entitled care.

Its not about being pro,

I'm gonna stop you right there...it is, it absolutely is, especially when you want to see pro actions outside of areas that don't need it. But continue...

there are a lot of factors in your experience that need to be explained. As a point, did the following occur?:

1) Were you weaving in DAPS into your rotation every few combos to maintain a hate lead? Duh, Additional Enimity? Who wouldn't?
2) If you know the DPS are heavily geared, did you do a double DAPS opener in grit? (Definitely not the ideal, but it is a thing) Yes. I even stooped so low in one run, to do a triple DAPS...at which point I had the fight the urge of sighing and saying to myself 'what's the point? might as well stay in tank stance now.'
3) Were your DPS, with all their pro sauce dps, using aggro dumps or were they being jerks and just straight DPSing? You know as well as I do...80% of the overmelded, on O11S after first day of release crowd are jackasses. To them, it's a game to take hate from a pleb tank...of course they didn't dump aggro.
4) Were you riding oGCDs hard? not a single friggen button was left unused the moment it was available.
5) What is your weapons iLvl? i340ish of whatever. What ever it is that you could improve the creation weapon too

Answers in the quote itself.

And on a more relevant note: IF youre going into new content at the bare minimum iLvL, yeah, its gonna be a struggle, and yeah, youre going to have to pull out all the stops.

I don't know if it's just me, but I kind of enjoy how you are back peddling a bit on your previous comment. From 'People standing in Tank stance is a sign of a bad tank' to '...but I guess...if they are just meeting the iLevel requirement, and they are partying with people far better equipped than them...maybe it's ok.'


I'm sure you aren't doing that in the slightest, of course, just kinda seems a teensy bit like you are.

Im not part of an elite mass. At the very best, Im a little above mediocre. I make plenty of mistakes and am still learning the class.

Yea, I hear a lot of elitists are like that, being humble and all. Makes them think doing so will have people think. 'Oh thank god! One of the good elitists have come to our aid! We are saved!'

However, Im talking down to you because you (or rather people more broadly) are promoting a bad way of thinking. You are giving people excuses to rationalize being mediocre. Its the "Its not my fault, its really 'x's fault". X being gear, or dps who dont know better, or bad healers, or bad game mechanics or dungeon design. And it makes me upset because I was exactly one of those people who subscribed to that. "How could anyone tank out of tank stance! Thats stupid! Were tanks, not DPS!" or "I tank in tank stance cause its easier on the healers, and I dont have to worry about threat!". Or whatever excuse I had. I bought those ideas cause I was being lazy about actually putting in the effort to be better. And it was made all the more easier by fellow tanks telling me things like what you point out.

Oh crap, Melicoir! I feel it coming....do....do you feel it....dear God, look out. SAVE YOURSELF.....

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CASUAL, AND DON'T DO SAVAGE OR EXTREME CONTENT.

You see a tank standing in tank stance in an extreme or savage, don't worry. You and six other people are most likely going to have him want to unsubscribe, and cut himself before the day is over. You make sure they never do that in your face again, you hear! never!

...but in the boring as hell, most people are doing half asleep anyway, run of the mill, Point A to Point B to Point C, 4 man dungeons? No one cares, and if you do, get with your raid buddies, and pretend The Burn is an extreme raid. Drop down some markers, discuss a plan of action in discord. Make sure the Ready Countdown is set to 7 (is is 7? or 12? For Ninja's Huton...is that still a thing?) so that he has it up and can do preemo dps with his pre-rotation set up properly. Make a day of it...I'm sure you'll have a blast.

As a point, burdening your DPS to cover your DPS loss means the fight goes on longer, which means youll run a greater risk of hitting Enrage, or messing up mechanics thatll kill your team. Every time you have to repeat a mechanic, thats another chance you could wipe. And trust me, it is way way easier for you to push out +2k more DPS by knowing your class then it is for a DPS to push that volume out if they already know their class. Chances are, at this far in the xpac, youre not doing favors to your DPS or Heals by that way of thinking. Particularly if people want fast clears.

NOOO MELICHOIR! YOU HAVE AWAKEN THE BEAST AGAIN! LOOK AWAY...It's com- no...that dig has ran it's course...it's old. If you still want to see it though, I refer you to the bold and italicized remarks above.

<stuff about practicing and doing your best, and trying your hardest and so on>.... If youre being reasonable, and polite, most people who play will be cool with you. Cause frankly, other than fast clears, people want to play with cool players, not dicks (and that irony is not lost upon me right now).

What fantasy world do you live in? When I was in an FC, even they responded to people needing in a way that made you wonder if they actually did let out a groan behind their keyboards. I mean hell, I spent 5 hours yesterday helping a group of seven learn and complete Shinryu Extreme. I literally made macros for them, got on discord with them to chat and give pointers to each job...it was actually rather fulfilling...despite the fact that all seven, the moment we finished, immediately left the trial, the disbanned the group. No 'thanks.' No 'holy shit we did it.' no a single moment of kindness or acknowledgement that 7 other people took time out of their day, to help them....

...If you seriously exist in a world where people are helpful in this game...I will...100% sell my mansion, and lose tens of millions of gil, just to transfer over to Sargatanas, so I can have that slice of happiness too. Cause I could use some of it now.

Hell...look at this damn post...I'm a nice guy, as evidenced by my tale above...but even now I'm being a damn asshole. No...the irony is not lost on me either.

Yeah, I got that feeling too. It was amazing. And, for me, made the game that much funner.

I'm sure that was there just to see if I'd notice....I did.

[Xlantaa]

Parser WITHOUT limitations are toxic. You need to put a lot of limitations to make it safe. I think now some like:

- The option to hide your numbers to other players (It appear as "Hide" or something in other people parser).
- Game masters who actually look at this and not fall in the "different playstyles" bullshit, because in this case does not apply, and punish players actually abusing it.
- Only available on premade parties and dummies.
- Heavily pursue any party finder with "Only XXX parser and must be active not hide or kick".

You probably will need a warning every time you activate it, saying you must not use it to harass people or exclude them for not having X number, or demanding activate it, and you can be banned for doing it etc, etc. All with red letters.

Games communities are too much immature to handle this tool properly. So they need be watched like kids.

I rather don't give a gun to a monkey.