How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Arrius]

Any serious (or semi serious) static will kick you after a few runs if they notice youre tanking in Grit/SwordOath/Defiance for the entirety of EX/Savage fight. As I said, the game is not currently designed for you to sit in tank stance. After getting initial hate in any raid or savage content, you can do the rest of the fight in DPS stances.

Being 'comfortable' is just another way of saying "Im to lazy and/or insecure in being able to tank and use my CDs effectively to drop out of tank stance". For someone whos got lvl 70 tanks, and supposedly mains one, its slightly baffling you think good tanking is "sit in grit" the entire fight.

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

[Melichoir]

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

[Maeka]

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

Depends on the boss too.

Had a warrior stay in DPS stance on Mist Dragon, and lemme tell you, I wish I could reach through the screen and click his Defiance button, seriously.

I have enough problems with that stupid dragon, I don't need a tank taking 20% more damage because he's in DPS stance.

[Melichoir]

There are considerations, so Ill admit that.

However, tank stance on all the time should not be the default mindset. If your healer is struggling really hard, yeah, tank stance may be a good option. If youre extremely undergeared and unfamiliar with the class, yes, tank stance is a solution to that problem. It should not be the go to solution in every case. Which is the point Im trying (but failing) to make.

This game, as it stands, is not designed for "Tank stance all night long". Its designed for certain things and situations, but broadly, you should be in DPS stance doing dps, and if necessary using tank stance as a cooldown for busters. Again, theres a lot of factors at play here. This will also mean yes, healers will have to get better, and DPS will have to to.

As an example: Tank is decently geared, and understands their class and role, and is doing boss mechanics 100% correctly. If theyre still dying, it is because of one of a few reasons:

1) Healer is not great geared and is struggling
2) Healer does not know their class effectively to work well with the tank
3) Healer is over taxed due to DPS eating every piece of damage and not trying to help with mitigation.

Two of the three of those issues can be improved by better players. DPS who mitigate damage/do mechanics right to reduce healing necessary, and healers who better understand their class to work well and more efficiently during heal intensive fights. This is why I think we need to start promoting the idea players need to improve, and stop making excuses. That means tnaks need to learn stance dancing and their class decently, DPS need to learn threat management and how not to eat damage, healers need to be better about how to manage heals on tanks and dps.

Im not saying every healer is a baddy, or dps, or tank. Rather among the more casual base, there is a bit of apathy towards the idea of learning to be a mean efficient healer/dps/tank. And if we want to stop having "baddies" in our groups, then we need to start promoting the idea of people getting better. So yeah, in the terms of tanking, that means not relying on tank stance as your bread and butter.

[Shurrikhan]

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs.

That's not casual content. That's just rudely negligent or encumbered play.

Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

That's just optimal. You'd need HG (or other cooldowns sufficient to require no healing) and a NIN in a short burst of AoE to outperform that option with SwO-TE spam.

But Paladin is the outlier in AoE. Both other tanks are hamstrung in their AoE by using tank stance. DRK without tank stance can spam 250 potency per GCD for as long as Del-BW will take him when fighting 12+ mobs, and the sure mana gains that allows can outsustain its tank form via DA-AD. The point still stands: one should be ready to drop tank stance when it is effective to do so (which is most, but not all, of the time). Else they risk making things harder on the party.

I can tell you're not holding your party back at all due to SwO/ShO usage, but as a guideline, seeing as not all tanks will be PLDs, I have to agree with Melichoir's advice, especially as it was posed in reply to "being uncomfortable with stance-dancing". That excuse, inherently, should be transient. One might not comfortable with it... yet. And it's better for one to stay alive for that first normal raid than to get one-shot and let the lead DPS be taken out, too, in the moments thereafter. But, anything more definitive than "yet" is intentionally siphoning effort from one's party to diminish what's immediately and visibly required of oneself (the MT).