How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Melichoir]

I have played too many competitive games and people trash talk each other because the stats show that someone is not dealing enough damage as they had expected. It's too easy to see someone not dealing enough damage through their uses of spells/skills/abilities. Using dps meter to measure your own damage is fine, but let other teammates, especially highly competitive and toxic people, know about it is just not fun at all.

Anyone whos serious about the game enough to be indepth can tell whos bad or not pretty quickly by what skills they use, how they use them, and how theyre faring in mechanics. I am by no means a 'hardcore' player, but Ive done enough tnaking I can spot bad tanks without a meter. One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

So in that regards, people who are skilled enough can spot bad players pretty quickly, with or without a parser. Chances are if youre dealing with a toxic person, theyll trash talk you by your class knowledge, with DPS being the cherry on top.

[Arrius]

[...] I can spot bad tanks without a meter. One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

Not a good example. They aren't necessarily bad, just maybe perhaps they more comfortable in staying in that stance instead of dancing between them. And I rather give the healer more wiggle room to possibly DPS and save the healing for DPS roles that fail mechanics, than me (a PLD) do a spec more damage.

Speaking of which, even with stance dancing, the DPS still are a issue these days - With all 10 role actions at their disposal, they still don't use Diversion or other actions frequently. And not to mention using single target attacks on groups of 4 and more. And much more.

I rather like the parser to have a stab on the bottom line and get the real bads thrown out of the door rather than antagonize anyone else, as long the performance they do is sufficient.

[Melichoir]

Not a good example. They aren't necessarily bad, just maybe perhaps they more comfortable in staying in that stance instead of dancing between them. And I rather give the healer more wiggle room to possibly DPS and save the healing for DPS roles that fail mechanics, than me (a PLD) do a spec more damage.

Speaking of which, even with stance dancing, the DPS still are a issue these days - With all 10 role actions at their disposal, they still don't use Diversion or other actions frequently. And not to mention using single target attacks on groups of 4 and more. And much more.

I rather like the parser to have a stab on the bottom line and get the real bads thrown out of the door rather than antagonize anyone else, as long the performance they do is sufficient.

Any serious (or semi serious) static will kick you after a few runs if they notice youre tanking in Grit/SwordOath/Defiance for the entirety of EX/Savage fight. As I said, the game is not currently designed for you to sit in tank stance. After getting initial hate in any raid or savage content, you can do the rest of the fight in DPS stances.

Being 'comfortable' is just another way of saying "Im to lazy and/or insecure in being able to tank and use my CDs effectively to drop out of tank stance". For someone whos got lvl 70 tanks, and supposedly mains one, its slightly baffling you think good tanking is "sit in grit" the entire fight.

As for DPS roles, yeah, I do agree that DPS (and players in general) are not playing at the full potential. A lot of players are phoning it in, or rather those who live the PUG life. Single target DPS instead of trying to maximize AoE DPS, not using aggro dumps, not using damage mitigators on AoEs, etc etc. Im actually glad with the current tier that some of the fight mechanics are indeed pushing players to use those skills more frequently to be effective and 100% less dead. Not to say Im not seeing tanks do their part. Half the tanks Ive seen seem to have some kind of allergy to Reprisal, or dont know how to circle shirk in raids, or us LD/HG/Holmgang as cooldowns to deal with mechanics rather than saving them as "Oh Snaps!" buttons.

I think the unfortunate side effect of SB and how they redid some of the classes is people got lazy, and now then started complaining about how "easy" things were. Now with the newer content pushing the envelope a touch, things should hopefully get a touch better. Maybe

[Arrius]

Any serious (or semi serious) static will kick you after a few runs if they notice youre tanking in Grit/SwordOath/Defiance for the entirety of EX/Savage fight. As I said, the game is not currently designed for you to sit in tank stance. After getting initial hate in any raid or savage content, you can do the rest of the fight in DPS stances.

Being 'comfortable' is just another way of saying "Im to lazy and/or insecure in being able to tank and use my CDs effectively to drop out of tank stance". For someone whos got lvl 70 tanks, and supposedly mains one, its slightly baffling you think good tanking is "sit in grit" the entire fight.

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

[Melichoir]

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

[Maeka]

I stance dance even in regular dungeons. It promotes faster clears. I explained in an above post why faster clears are better.

Are there times when you tank in grit/swordoath/etc?

Sure. There are.

But if youre doing it every boss fight, all the time, rationalizing "This is easier on healers," than its not so much that youre considering other players as much as youre just being lazy. If youre talkinga bout trash mobs and using grit? Yeah, thats expected. Maybe clarity on my part was needed. You run grit on trash pulls if your big pulling and what not. Im more talking about Boss fights.

Also, if we want better DPS, its time for them to learn they have to aggro dump. Staying in tank stance is just promoting the idea to DPS/Heals they dont need to learn to aggro dump and manage their aggro. It's a good time for everyone to start learning that this isnt about segmented roles. DPS and Heals have just as much to do with threat management as the tanks, much like tanks having to be concerned with DPS and dmg mitigation. If youre just playing it as "Im tank, only thing I do is get punched in the face and nothing more", youre limiting your engagement with the game.

Depends on the boss too.

Had a warrior stay in DPS stance on Mist Dragon, and lemme tell you, I wish I could reach through the screen and click his Defiance button, seriously.

I have enough problems with that stupid dragon, I don't need a tank taking 20% more damage because he's in DPS stance.

[Melichoir]

There are considerations, so Ill admit that.

However, tank stance on all the time should not be the default mindset. If your healer is struggling really hard, yeah, tank stance may be a good option. If youre extremely undergeared and unfamiliar with the class, yes, tank stance is a solution to that problem. It should not be the go to solution in every case. Which is the point Im trying (but failing) to make.

This game, as it stands, is not designed for "Tank stance all night long". Its designed for certain things and situations, but broadly, you should be in DPS stance doing dps, and if necessary using tank stance as a cooldown for busters. Again, theres a lot of factors at play here. This will also mean yes, healers will have to get better, and DPS will have to to.

As an example: Tank is decently geared, and understands their class and role, and is doing boss mechanics 100% correctly. If theyre still dying, it is because of one of a few reasons:

1) Healer is not great geared and is struggling
2) Healer does not know their class effectively to work well with the tank
3) Healer is over taxed due to DPS eating every piece of damage and not trying to help with mitigation.

Two of the three of those issues can be improved by better players. DPS who mitigate damage/do mechanics right to reduce healing necessary, and healers who better understand their class to work well and more efficiently during heal intensive fights. This is why I think we need to start promoting the idea players need to improve, and stop making excuses. That means tnaks need to learn stance dancing and their class decently, DPS need to learn threat management and how not to eat damage, healers need to be better about how to manage heals on tanks and dps.

Im not saying every healer is a baddy, or dps, or tank. Rather among the more casual base, there is a bit of apathy towards the idea of learning to be a mean efficient healer/dps/tank. And if we want to stop having "baddies" in our groups, then we need to start promoting the idea of people getting better. So yeah, in the terms of tanking, that means not relying on tank stance as your bread and butter.

[Shurrikhan]

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs.

That's not casual content. That's just rudely negligent or encumbered play.

Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

That's just optimal. You'd need HG (or other cooldowns sufficient to require no healing) and a NIN in a short burst of AoE to outperform that option with SwO-TE spam.

But Paladin is the outlier in AoE. Both other tanks are hamstrung in their AoE by using tank stance. DRK without tank stance can spam 250 potency per GCD for as long as Del-BW will take him when fighting 12+ mobs, and the sure mana gains that allows can outsustain its tank form via DA-AD. The point still stands: one should be ready to drop tank stance when it is effective to do so (which is most, but not all, of the time). Else they risk making things harder on the party.

I can tell you're not holding your party back at all due to SwO/ShO usage, but as a guideline, seeing as not all tanks will be PLDs, I have to agree with Melichoir's advice, especially as it was posed in reply to "being uncomfortable with stance-dancing". That excuse, inherently, should be transient. One might not comfortable with it... yet. And it's better for one to stay alive for that first normal raid than to get one-shot and let the lead DPS be taken out, too, in the moments thereafter. But, anything more definitive than "yet" is intentionally siphoning effort from one's party to diminish what's immediately and visibly required of oneself (the MT).

[RuleofThree]

One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

No. Just...no.

1) Person might not be comfortable stance dancing. Losing hate on a boss is much more troublesome than someone not wanting to get out of tank stance. In fact, if they aren't comfortable stance dancing, I welcome them to stay in tank stance, rather than risk the boss tankbusting a dps.

2) Tank might be a good tank, but undergeared. Not everyone can drop the millions upon millions of gill for the i380 crafted gear. And given that it's only the end of week 1, most people are going to have an i390 creation ring...at best. Just because you might be on O11S already, doesn't mean everyone else is.

[Melichoir]

No. Just...no.

1) Person might not be comfortable stance dancing. Losing hate on a boss is much more troublesome than someone not wanting to get out of tank stance. In fact, if they aren't comfortable stance dancing, I welcome them to stay in tank stance, rather than risk the boss tankbusting a dps.

2) Tank might be a good tank, but undergeared. Not everyone can drop the millions upon millions of gill for the i380 crafted gear. And given that it's only the end of week 1, most people are going to have an i390 creation ring...at best. Just because you might be on O11S already, doesn't mean everyone else is.

Le sigh.

My gear is not 'Gil Dropped Over melded 380+ crafted gear'. Im running 360-370 Ryumaki and Diamond with two 380 pieces from Alphascape, and the Suzu Ex weapon primarily. Ive not bought any Genesis gear yet. I still tank outside of Grit in Content Im clearing. Why? Because the fights are designed for it and Im a good tank who has learned how to do it with healers who have learned how to heal tanks outside of grit with DPS who have learned to DPS with tanks who arent using grit. We're not having problems.

People like you are only proving you do not know the mechanics of the class.

So let me just break it down easy for you:

Enmity should not be an issue for you in the current tier, particularly, because after getting initial aggro, your DPS should keep hate so long as your teams DPS is using proper aggro Dumps AND your OT is circle shirking with you. In a proper group, I very VERY rarely have enmity issues, and if it does occur, it is almost ALWAYS my fault for not doing something I shouldve been doing. And if DPS arent using aggro dumps, be a good tank and tell them to use them. And btw, Tank busters are there to force you to perform certain actions. There are no single target tank busters which will kill you unless its intended to do so because you failed a tank swap. You can cooldown through all of htem wihtout tank stance. And hey, guess what! You can turn your tank stance back ON if you really want to! Imagine that! Using tank stance LIKE A CD!

And you dont get comfortable doing something unless you practice. Its literally "Git Gud". 'Cause guess what. I used to play the way you suggest. So I know full well that feeling of being told "Dont tank in tank stance." But I wanted to raid, and I wanted to be better, so I actually practiced tanking outside of tank stance. And guess what, its not that hard. If anything, its funner. Dont come up to me telling me that "A good tank plays in Tank stance!" cause thats not the way it is. Thats real beginner way of thinking in the game as it currently is. You want better tanks (and better players), its about encouraging them to start doing things that theyre not comfortable doing and learning how to manage. That makes better players. Telling tanks to stay in tank stance cause its "easier" just keeps tanks in the dark about how to be a better, more proactive tank. It also keeps them from attempting harder content because the better players wont play with a tank who cant stance dance.