How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[SenorPatty]

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

So let's review somethings here:

-kicking silently: toxic.
-Kicking with an explanation: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong without openly mentioning parsers: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong while mentioning parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient without parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient with parsers: toxic

So I guess it really doesn't matter because it's clear that at the end of the day, you're far more likely to be labeled toxic for virtually anything not because of parsers but because you were supposed to accommodate silently instead.

[Dualgunner]

So let's review somethings here:

-kicking silently: toxic.
-Kicking with an explanation: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong without openly mentioning parsers: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong while mentioning parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient without parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient with parsers: toxic

So I guess it really doesn't matter because it's clear that at the end of the day, you're far more likely to be labeled toxic for virtually anything not because of parsers but because you were supposed to accommodate silently instead.

If you breathe you're toxic.

[Aerlana]

On this post i will speak about what i see on wow. I am sorry i dont like doing long post only speaking about wow (or other game than FFXIV). But i think it is the best way to explain my PoV there.

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

Just, i would like to understand why it is toxic.
Except particulary problematics players, never saw a 1 wipe = kick time". Saw it with people that said "i know strategy" and failed to basic mechanics (so he lied and the run was intended to people knowing mechanics ! ).

Most of time, we have to see 2-3 wipe before a raidlead decide to begin the kicking of "bad" people (even on DPS and on mechanics ). But we speak heroic/mythic raid run, where we want people to perform.

Also, in normal run (as hard as story mode) we can see it... but with "toxic bad players" because failing in NM... 1 time ok, but more...

For LFR, yes, sometime there is kick, when we get 4-5 time the buff from wipe, the parsers says some are REALLY to low DPS (close to tanks... or even lower!) or are unable to follow strategy ( we speak about a difficulty where strategy are really basics !)
I already saw, on LFR, some of the good DPS people being kicked because they were dumbass you know. (and strangely, just kicking them made the run better after...)

BUT for me, toxicity is "elitists" players that ask you to be perfect because he is (in fact he thinks he is). But Toxic players are also those who hopes to be carried on the content by other players.

We have to "live" together. yes, we have to admit "low playing" people with us. I never waited a sprout icon to help a guy who looks newbie on MMORPG. Also, even from my own guild, if i thought the guy was not able, for now, to do what we wait from him in a specific content, i said to just not come. Because when we are 8 to try on any content, getting slowed by only one guy is realyl frustrating for the others. Finally i always helped even the worst player of my guilds, but later... 1 month, 2 month, when all get enough stuff and knowledge about the fight to make it smooth with 7 people and 1 deadweight.
I speak "myself" and so speak about my life, because i dont want to say "most pro parser people thinks like this" but i clearly think i am not alone.

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

So what? you want SE to close this site? they cant.
SE could block ACT/FFXIVapp (and other parsing program) and they don't do (maybe not so easy, or prefer to let a little parsing exists for theorycrafters, etc etc etc).

But fun fact, on wow, we are on the 3rd week of the new raid on wow, the last boss in heroic mode become common to be killed, but not all already achieved it.
There is numerous party in the PF, and i did see, in 3 week only 5 party forming with "checking warcraft logs" (and if i dont do mistake, it is 2 people doing this). I am not even sure they gets better results than other team (i think to the one i was in this week, with a good raidlead... people heared, obey and all was smooth, he didnt even ask the proof of last boss kills just the boss before him that are clearly easier)

The "toxic wow players" dont recruit due to logs and FFXIV some does?
I think because wow dont get all those discussion about toxicity of parsers. Some people stays in content where Duty Finder is (heroic dongeon, the LFR) where they rarely get matters due to their lack of DPS (and not all are "bad" !) and others go to the Party Finder, go in front of the raid entry, run with a group of people, with one guy as leader that can decide who he will kick. Some are dumb, some are really good guys, we all know the risks when joining. And the funniest, a raidlead who kicks "stupidly" generally regret it, because many people will complain about this and get away from the party.

On WoW we dont think "we have the holy mission to carry bad people". Only those who wants this does this. (and when raid is well cleared by most players, we see some PF forming clearly to help other people) Those who doesnt care just dont. And people wanting to be carried whine or train to be at least "good enough"...

But hum... and if great part of those people waiting to be carried found what they wanted on Final Fantasy XIV finally ?

[Bellsong]

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

Yeah I wish everyone was nicer and more patient, then you wouldn't have to look at FFlogs to tell if someone was up to the content, you wouldn't have to parse to know you could rely on your teammates. People would be nice enough to only join parties at the level they can perform, and would have the patience to take the time to learn and get better for parties with a higher performance required.

And in case anyone did join a party they weren't prepared for, all would be well because they would nicely bow out, thanking everyone for their patience with the wipes thy caused.

Literally everything would be better.

[Dzian]

I agree logs should definitely be opt in and not opt out. I've said that before. I've hidden all my data on there for a multitude of reasons.

1 being. Yes I parse but I don't parse often enough or religiously enough to upload it all to logs thus any parses of me on there are incredibly sporadic and random and not an accurate representation of my ability.

Second being like many players I'm tired of the endless treadmill grind replacing trash gear with trash gear with trash gear and as a result many of my jobs are behind on the I level. My mains only just scraped into alpha at i356 none of which is represented on logs so people would typically look at that and assume my ilevel is higher and thus my performance looks worse than it is. Especially with the speed at which power creep and stat growth happens more recently.

It's not a bad tool when used correctly but I do find to many people treat it as gospel fact when there's some rather huge margins for error in logs for things that aren't recorded. A badly positioned boss for 1 example can have a significant impact on your uptime and dps. Or badly placed aoes on the ground for another.

[Ameela]

Tank pulls too much and dies or loses aggro: "Jeez you suck tank come on pick up your slack"
Healer doesn't heal enough and everyone dies as a result: "Jeez healer can you please do your job already?"
DPS doesn't do enough damage so fights take three times as long to finish: "Jeez guys stop criticising me you bunch of elitists lmao you expect me to play perfect like you no lifers?"

[MoroMurasaki]

If everyone avoided doing any of the things that these crybullies deem toxic we would all still be stuck on Shinryu normal.

You can't parse, even when you're keeping it to yourself.

You can't criticize anyone for anything ever (except parsing or criticizing someone else, at that point feel free to punch them as they are basically Hitler.)

Basically say hi when you get in (not "hi guys" since you can't assume their genders) and thank everyone when you clear. If you speak between those times it is toxic.

Or, as an alternative, ignore the snowflakes and watch them melt

[Sigma-Astra]

I don't understand how people can play online FF on console. I learned my lesson from FF11 when i started out on PS2. Console will get outdated while the game will keep going on the years and you will be left behind as the updates will not work well on your old console.

It's a really simple process actually.

1. You go out and buy a PS4 with a controller.

2. You go out and buy Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood. You install the game onto your PS4.

3. You sign up, pay for a subscription, and do all of that fun Mogstation stuff with registering the game on your service account.

4. You boot up the game.

5. You play the game.

Note: I've been playing XIV on a PS4 for over five years. I started around the time HW just introduced the Gordias fights, it's not going to get outdated any time soon.

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

And this is why we have a toxic environment around parsers.....because of people not being able to handle the truth about their numbers at all and cry foul the minute no one gives them a gold star sticker for effort.

You don't get invited into Savage parties if you can't perform, likewise, you don't win the spelling bee if you can't spell the word correctly and missed one letter.

You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

This is like saying 2+2=4 on a calculator is wrong and that it's not enough of a direct and factual evidence to be used in order to say that yes, two plus two equals four. ACT is literally a calculator and FFlogs merely just translates that data into something we can understand on a screen while doing the math for us and separating it into different sections and categories.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

Because I have expectations when I clearly label my party "farm" or "O9S weekly clear"? How dare I want people to know how to play their parties in Savage!

FFlogs is basically a resume. Of course, you just walk into a job, sport or any group activity, claim you know everything and said group must accept this or they're horrible, toxic, people, yes? In fact, let's compare! If you were on a Hockey team and needed a fill in for an upcoming tournament, but said fill in couldn't couldn't pass the puck, repeatedly got deked out and essentially couldn't keep up with the skill level of the team. Would you be totes okay spending several hours being "nice and patient" with them? Would you be annoyed they signed up in the first place, knowing the team expectations being woefully ill-prepared for them?

Bear in mind, if you show them any video evidence on what they're doing wrong—even if it would be a clear help—you're a toxic, horrible, person.

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

But it isn't toxic a Samurai doing sub 4k sneaked into a Savage weekly and clearly have no idea what they're doing, thereby wasting everyone else's time? How about a White Mage who can't properly heal? Must be my fault for not staying in Tank Stance the whole fight because how dare I expect to be healed consistently?

[RiyahArp]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.