How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

They are only delayed from joining parties they are not yet ready for. Whether this comes in the form of users demanding certain parse numbers, a Faust-esque equivalent or something else is irrelevant. If you aren't able to overcome this obstacle, you aren't ready. Removing said obstacle doesn't magically make those players able to approach the content. They're simply joining groups who will be none to happy by their poor performance. Regardless, this hypothetically serves no purpose to a parse discussion since parses don't really act as a "gatekeeper".

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

You know what gets really old? When I clearly label my PF "farm" and get someone who has utterly no idea what half the mechanics are, dies repeatedly and/or does comparable damage to a tank. The proper response is to not be an inconsiderate jerk. Why is it okay for you to join farm parties when you aren't capable of performing a decent rotation. We're not talking about a mistake here or there. Those happen to the best of us. We're taking about people who show little to no desire to improve yet expect everyone else to do the work. What do I lose? My time. Dog farms necessitate no less than 99 runs; more if you don't want to wait six months. Even if a minute is added because of consistent mistakes from one or two people, that means an extra Suzaku every 8-10 clears. In the end, I'll have added anywhere from ten to fifteen more runs, assuming I don't get a lucky roll all because someone couldn't be bothered to put in the effort to improve themselves before joining. I find hilariously ironic you accuse people unwilling to carry as being selfish yet don't apply that logic to the person expecting everyone else to compensate for their own laziness. Who's actually lazy in a scenario where the Warrior is out-DPSing a Samurai despite both having roughly equivalent ilvls?

Putting that aside, if I wanted to teach you how to do the fight, I would be in a learning party. The whole reason we have such a distinction is because people have already progressed beyond a certain point and want to progress further, not spending another hour or however longer teaching someone else. In the case of a farm party, you should know the whole fight. That is what farm parties are; farming the content. Not teaching someone mechanics they should already know. Do some people overreact in a learning party? Sure, but you're being deliberately hyperbolic like usually. I purposely used a farm party per my example, thus this shouldn't be your first time.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.

[SenorPatty]

You already have it: Stone, Sky, Sea.
If you pass it, your stats and rotation are enough for the fight. Too bad too much people even ignore its existence.

SSS only tells me that my rotation vs a mechanic free environment where I can camp the dummy's rear and flank for the whole duration of the timer is good enough. It fails to tell me anything else that could help me improve my uptime for a particular fight. It doesn't help me identify my downtimes and it doesn't help me clearly calculate how much damage I'm during the opener of my rotation and hereafter. And that's just the top three things I can think right off the top of my head.

How is this not getting through people who keep saying "SSS is good enough"?

[Shurrikhan]

What did parsers do to those games, and do you have anything other than anecdote as evidence?

I can't speak to much detail for Wildstar, but in WoW's case... very little, if anything. Unless progging a boss with an extremely tight enrage, players were generally only removed if they were putting out outlier level low numbers. It made people hit the training dummies a ton more, and sometimes the dps who made a heroic damn near impossible during early WotLK/Cata or a Challenge mode in WoD would be kicked, but beyond that... didn't provide exclusion except where exclusion was truly necessary.

[KaldeaSahaline]

As for the topic, "how would a parser be toxic?" Before SE pushed the 'don't ask, don't tell' mentality of parsers, people were kicking under performing players for not pulling arbitrary numbers in their parties. This is probably what SE is trying to avoid, because if they make, or otherwise acknowledge, an allowance of the tool, people will be excluded for ... reasons ... on a game they pay a membership for.

That being a concern is a big nothing burger though. If they were truly concerned about exclusion they wouldn't have created DF features that allowed you to only queue with people who cleared, or PF features that let you exclude jobs or ilvl, or fight status.

The fact that they've expanded on those features over the years is proof that it's nothing but a hypocritical stance.

Giving more tools to everyone to judge others will only end up in even more toxicity. "It will happen without a parser anyway" is a wrong argument. You are saying that like if having tons of players who actually dont even know what a parser is, getting suddenly access to one isn't gonna stir up even more trouble

If you actually read those posts you'd see that the issue wasn't actually the community. It was the individual players. In fact 7 other people found the person to be toxic by measure of his gameplay. Sometimes just being catastrophically disrespectful to a teammate is more toxic than a few empty words said later.

The anti parser crowd always falls back on the argument that opening them up causes more toxicity, but can never present data to support their cause. It's simply a tool. Harassment is still policed via reports, etc. That doesn't go away or change. In fact, if you were to present me with 2 options. Kicked without any feedback (like the one poster) or kicked and told why, one gives me a chance to fix it.

You know, like the real world works? If I'm fired from a job, they tell me why. I fix it. If I get expelled from school/uni they tell me why. I fix it. If I get benched in a sports team, the coach tells me why and I practice.

I've played enough WoW over the years to see the good, the bad and the ugly with parsers. It is simply abused too often. Not always, but still too often.

Ironic - I've played WoW for 14 years at this point. I can't cite a single example of parser abuse. Wonder why.

What reason is there that everyone has to complete the tiers as fast as possible?

if you've ever pugged Savage, you'd know the answer to this. The quality of players drops dramatically as better players clear early on and exclude those who haven't cleared.

[thegreatonemal]

It's not a gatekeeper to the fight though, if you're hoping to add to that discussion. Its not a good alternative to a parser either. It's a good 3 minute rotational learning tool, but it's not much else.

Which is the only thing you need in this game. Nothing in this game requires you to optimize using a parser. Do your rotation properly through mechanics and you'll be pulling your weight through any piece of content you do including ultimate.

[thegreatonemal]

SSS only tells me that my rotation vs a mechanic free environment where I can camp the dummy's rear and flank for the whole duration of the timer is good enough. It fails to tell me anything else that could help me improve my uptime for a particular fight. It doesn't help me identify my downtimes and it doesn't help me clearly calculate how much damage I'm during the opener of my rotation and hereafter. And that's just the top three things I can think right off the top of my head.

How is this not getting through people who keep saying "SSS is good enough"?

Your eyes will do the first 2 if you bother paying attention and the third one isn't important because for most fights the boss doesn't do anything that would stop that dummy opener.

[AriaXIV]

Reasons why parsers wont be allowed: HC raiders.

[Aerlana]

unless you want the FF14 community to turn toxic

*look to some parties*
The game isn't already full of toxic players? ...

Else, maybe a way to you to admit that ruining anyone else run due to lack of performance is not toxic... (and even more, spitting on people giving you advice then...) you are right.
Toxicity get numerous way to apear, and FFXIV has his own...

Ironic - I've played WoW for 14 years at this point. I can't cite a single example of parser abuse. Wonder why.

Technically, for anti-parser people, kicking due to "parsing says you are bad" is an abuse...
Even if for the ilvl the guy you kicked is far under the "minimum" for a decent play. And, fun thing, i saw on FFXIV also this matter (where it is easier i think to define your rotation of skills)... This kind of player that do like what... 50% of the damages they should at least with their stuff...


The funniest thing about "parser yes or no?" is :
Parser are already in use (even if anti dislike it)
Parser are allowed time you dont kick "because parsers says you are bad" (so, just kick anyone without saying anything, and no matter... so much better yes)
There is a website where anyone can upload parsing data from a fight or another (FFlogs). Website already use from some people to select who they accept / deny in their team (not all, probably a minority yes)

So, the "no" are defending a situation bad for people from "yes team" and... also for themselves ! An official parser would be for a "victim of toxicity" a tool he can use to defend the fact he was good in fact... (so... victim from an abusiv kick)

SE have to choose, between working against FFlogs site, and all existing parser, or doing an official parser. Staying in the middle stance like now is the worst decision. For both team.


But here is (in my opinion) why we are in this silly middle stance : Banning/stopping all parsing system (and FFlogs) would only make more angry a part of population that is activ in end game content... and many of them could drop the game. so, less customer => bad. Doing an official parser? it would make angry the antiparsing team. Compalining about the toxicity (the one i wait them to show...) and... they could also stop their subscription.

No balls... this is the reason

[greytonberry]

Reasons why parsers wont be allowed: HC raiders.

I mean Raiders aren't really the issue at all are they? The problem is that bad players don't want their parties to know how bad they are, but mostly they themselves don't want to know how bad they are. They want to live in their own bubble of them pulling their weight as evidenced by certain other threads lately. To add another unhelpful generalization to the mix "Reasons why parsers wont be allowed: Casuals".

Raiders will almost all already have those numbers ready and available, just feels bad to be a ps4 player interested in parsing.(which i believe the original topic was about?)

[Selova]

Reasons why parsers wont be allowed: HC raiders.

The hilarious part about this is that the crowd that is vehemently anti-parser are hands down the most toxic, just look at any thread having to do with parsers that's been created within the last few years. HC raiders couldn't care less what your numbers are in your DF/PF groups because they have statics and don't pug content, aka you are not playing with them.