How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[AriaXIV]

I have nothing against the idea of parsers. In the right hands parsers would be used for good. In the wrong hands...not so much. Sadly those "wrong hands" have to be taken into account, and imo parsers shouldn't be permitted for official use as a result.

Yeah see the wrong hands are the problem.. they seem to be more frequent.

[Dirwen]

I'm against having an official parser. It will bring more bad than good. Doubt I'll bother trying high tier raids as it looks too skill intensive so my opinion is probably pointless. Granted I'm worried people will use it for normal content and it'll trickle down to low level stuff too making it the standard. Therefore, more drama and in turn making the community more toxic.

[Legion88]

I have nothing against the idea of parsers. In the right hands parsers would be used for good. In the wrong hands...not so much. Sadly those "wrong hands" have to be taken into account, and imo parsers shouldn't be permitted for official use as a result. I've played enough WoW over the years to see the good, the bad and the ugly with parsers. It is simply abused too often. Not always, but still too often.

This "wrong hands" not only have to be taken into account, they also have to be taken to responsibility.

[Legion88]

I'm against having an official parser. It will bring more bad than good. Doubt I'll bother trying high tier raids as it looks too skill intensive so my opinion is probably pointless. Granted I'm worried people will use it for normal content and it'll trickle down to low level stuff too making it the standard. Therefore, more drama and in turn making the community more toxic.

1.) How would the usage of an official fully functional parser limited to the high end game be possible in dungeons and "casual" content?

2.) Toxicity doesn't come from a parser.

1. Parser generates facts and facts are not toxic.
2. People take the facts and form them via words, feelings and intent.
3. Also people interpreting the fromed words with their own intent and feelings.

Number 1 doesn't generate toxicity. Number 2 and 3 can generate toxicity depending on feelings and intent.
Also if people wouldn't be seeking drama and put on their big boy pants more often it would be less toxicity, because toxicity is subjectiv and depends heavily on context and interpretation.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's not my point. It can't be a gear check, because the issue people want gatekeeping fights for is not gear, but skill. And if they don't have the skill to beat it on launch, they need to practice till they can or they can't enter the instance. If they need to rely on better gear to beat the challenge, then it will be too late. You won't be able to be understanding, the gatekeeper will keep them out of the fight. The point is that with a gatekeeper like this, it will delay people from entering to prevent that. And by then, there won't be people who need newbies.

If they cannot beat this hypothetical gatekeeper, they have no business joining parties for that piece of content. You acknowledge they lack the skill outright and may struggle. Why is it because who don't lack said skill obligated to carry this person through content? If I set up a Suzaku farm party, this means I expect people to know all the mechanics and have cleared the fight preferable multiple times. Now I certainly won't kick people for mistakes here or there. We're only human. Mistakes are going to happen no matter how good you may be. What I don't appreciate is someone who has no idea what they're doing yet expects the rest of us to muscle through because they're somehow entitled to our time.

Regardless, people aren't necessarily asking for a "gatekeeper." A parse simply holds everyone accountable. If you're a Samurai pulling 3,500 DPS, you have no business being in Tsukiyomi EX. You're a complete liability to everyone else, especially in a farm party. That denotes someone who is simply trying to leech off other people's effort.

Yeah see the wrong hands are the problem.. they seem to be more frequent.

That simply isn't true. You may hear more about toxic example, but if used that as a basis, FFXIV is in dire states and ready to shut down at any moment. Put simply, people always talk about negative things more than positive. You can have a hundred people use a parse as intended, and be pretty chill about it. Then one jerk comes along and they're the only person who will get any attention. Why? Drama is more interesting to discuss. There isn't much discussion to be had from a positive experience, which is why they're less likely to occur. A prime example of this is Ultimate clears. Some groups post their clear video on reddit and see no more than ten posts and a couple likes. Create another decrying Ultimate as a waste of resources and you'll see hundreds of comments in a matter of hours.

Parsers work in a similar fashion. In fact, from a purely anecdotal experience, I have see more toxicity from people clearly not using a parser than I ever have people who do run one. And in the cases where they outright admit to using a parse, they aren't rude. Meanwhile, I've had DPS bitch incessantly about low damage only to glance over and see I'm out-dpsing them on Warrior. Perhaps my favourite instance is a Samurai who called a friend and I "shit" when said friend said "Okay. I think I'm out. Some people clearly don't know the fight." This was after our third wipe. She was doing almost double his damage with only a slightly higher ilvl. She was actually doing double the Dragoon's damage. Meanwhile, I wasn't too far behind her. And I was at a lower ilvl. But Mr. Samurai here thought he was amazing.

A parser wouldn't make him a jerk. He already was one.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Regarding Gatekeepers...


What reason is there that everyone has to complete the tiers as fast as possible?

Sure I know about world firsts, but anyone who's aiming for world first wouldn't have any problem with a gatekeeper.


As it is aren't the world firsts in like hours after the Patch if that, outside of the ultimate fights..?


As the game currently is, I don't see the SSS dummies posing any problem to people who are already routinely clearing Savage content...

[lulunami]

Most people do not handle criticism very well, whether it be constructive or not. People are very emotional, irrational and have huge egos. When you tell people they can improve here and they can make less mistakes there, not everyone reacts the same way. When faced with empirical data, not everyone is willing to accept the data out of shame or denial.

The politics of dealing with people can be more difficult than the problem-analysis-solution at hand.

[RiyahArp]

If they cannot beat this hypothetical gatekeeper, they have no business joining parties for that piece of content. You acknowledge they lack the skill outright and may struggle. Why is it because who don't lack said skill obligated to carry this person through content?

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

this is more about the people who can do the content, but would take longer. You're delaying them further by the gatekeeper. It's sort of an extra penalty on those who might be willing to try it. If it takes long enough, you may just end up not completing a raid tier when its useful because you still need to go through the static/pug rigamarole, but it's worse since the keeper sorts out all the other players by then; they have it on farm, you are just starting.

If the gatekeeper has several mechanics from the following raid tier, then you're actually preparing people for them ahead of time, because if you can execute them on the gatekeeper, you can execute them on the raids themselves.

..and honestly, the carry thing gets old. If the dude tries and fails, and people manage to win, the proper response is not "lol, carry" but "let's do it again and work on it some more." And this game you lose nothing...imagine in games where just to do savage, you needed a 10 million gil pop item, or to farm a mob for four hours for a pop, and people still didnt complain about carries as much as here. Most of the problem here is people are too selfish and too lazy to form actual raiding statics or guilds or to teach or mentor players; they just expect everyone to do it right first time or its a carry. They have no patience, no empathy, and despite this game being the friendliest endgame in any mmo with its time burden they treat it like you just cost them a year of effort if something happens.

It's no big deal for the person being carried. After all, they're not the ones making an effort to compensate for the person not giving their all in the fight. If such a person was in one of those statics that prioritize loot based on necessity and performance, it would take a while till that person got ahold of a gear piece.

I mean, this is the game where players complain if you watch a 3 min cinematic before a trial. Literally had someone gripe about cape westwind cs and told the person to watch it in the in.

You also have people complaining that a MSQ fight easier than most dungeon bosses is too hard, so it's not like it's just one side at fault here. Plus that's on SE to fix, not people to endure.

[Dualgunner]

Tbh i dont agree with parsers because they annoy me, setting them up is a pain and after what parsers did to the WoW and Wildstar communities? Let em never be allowed.

What did parsers do to those games, and do you have anything other than anecdote as evidence?