How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Vidu]

So instead of linking them to the balance discord then kicking them and moving on people harass which will increase with an official parser. Add that on to the fact that parser aren't really needed for anything outside of theory testing and speed runs. so why waste dev time on that. It would be better if they added the rotations to the game and a way to practice it kinda like fighting games do.

A person in need of a link to the balance discord or a job-guide shouldnt be in content were their performance actually matters, aka Savage, Ultimate or Ex-Primals, in the first place. But currently those people have no way of telling them wether or not they're actually good (enough) on their job. An official parser, showing them their numbers after a dungeon-run for example together with a number they should be aiming for (because numbers without context wont matter here), can tell a person that they need to look up about their class, before they even get into content where it matters that they know what they're doing.

One problem this game has is the lack of actual feedback, aswell as the jump in difficulty from dungeons and normal modes to Savage raids and Extremes.
By at least seeing their numbers and some sort of estimate on how good those numbers are, people who actually care, but just dont know better, can improve before they burden anyone with them needing a carry.
People who dont want to improve deserve that kick - they dont deserve harrassment or insults, but they dont deserve being carried and getting their clear on the back of 7 other people either.
No one in a clear-party should need an explantion on how their job works - they're here to learn the fight, not their rotation. Right now there isnt really anything thats telling you wether you have that down or not though - Stone, Sky, Sea is an option, but you have to go out of your way for that. Getting a message off "You achieved 30% of the damage the job you're playing on was expected to deal in this content" at the end of an encounter seems more effective to me to be honest.

Jerks will be jerks with or without a parser - and wether they're pulling good numbers or basically nothing.

[RuleofThree]

So I've been thinking about this alot, reading other posts in here and the like, and one thing kept being brought up that no one seems to question: A tool for parsing can be used as a learning tool. I agree, as a whole, I mean, you'd have to come up with some compelling argument to try to say that information - no matter how it was gotten - (in this case parsing) isn't useful in some way to help better yourself. The problem I am having is this: how is it a learning tool? I mean yea, it has the numbers, but the numbers mean nothing when left by their own. I did some looking around on fflogs (as well as I could anyway, I don't know anyone specifically to look up, and evidently I have nothing logged on there) to see if I can find something...but came up short.

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad? What is the benchmark for dps for a dps in iLevel 180 gear? A tank in iLevel 260 gear? I can see how that would be useful, cause then I can take my numbers and put it to a benchmark...but as it stands now..I see nothing...just a bunch of useless numbers that people in current gear doing current content are proud to have public. If this parsing tool was to be official and public for all...well...not everyone is 70th level in alpha savage gear.

[Aerlana]

*snip*

First, easiest way, it is a "learning tool" because it can show you if you are bad or no. if you need to improve a lot or no.
Silly to say but we need this to know. lets say, tomorrow you become a lumberjack, you cut trees, you cut 10 trees a day. knowing this, are you able to say me if it is a good or bad number? now i say you that your neighbor does 20 a day... now you can answer.

Second, have to learn to read it. we know that 3 > 1 because teachers said it. parser can list all skill you used. How much you used each, how much time you did have crit for each skill.
So you did a rotation for the first try, you know there is matter because at 1 minute 15 second, the boss go away, you cant anymore damages. but there is maybe things to change a little. lets do a out of GCD skill a little sooner than expected maybe it will allow you to get it a little more before the boss jump, so a little loss on one point to a little win after. try, and lets see what parser say, what from the 2 thing does the most damages (and remember to see how much critical etc)

Third : you are in a team. you are a samurai ok. but, when the RDM does his buff, it improves your damages. while watching the parse of the whole team, you think the RDM could delay 5 or 10 second the buff to get more damages. It is not so stupid sometime. (a skill with 2 min cooldown in a 10 min fight can be use 5 time. you can delay some of the uses to get it 5 times)
Oh, and, with the graph you see that at a time, the 2 healers clearly drop in damages => why? maybe tank can change a little to get this drop shorter? or even DPS?


There is example because i dont know how to explain well. but the main matter is to learn to well read it, not just "hey i did 5% more damages than last time"
Doing the rotation perfectly? yes good, when the boss dont move, when you dont have to move, etc. during each fight there is plenty thing to adjust, and not all time stuck to exactly the rotation...

[HyoMinPark]

So I've been thinking about this alot, reading other posts in here and the like, and one thing kept being brought up that no one seems to question: A tool for parsing can be used as a learning tool. I agree, as a whole, I mean, you'd have to come up with some compelling argument to try to say that information - no matter how it was gotten - (in this case parsing) isn't useful in some way to help better yourself. The problem I am having is this: how is it a learning tool? I mean yea, it has the numbers, but the numbers mean nothing when left by their own. I did some looking around on fflogs (as well as I could anyway, I don't know anyone specifically to look up, and evidently I have nothing logged on there) to see if I can find something...but came up short.

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad? What is the benchmark for dps for a dps in iLevel 180 gear? A tank in iLevel 260 gear? I can see how that would be useful, cause then I can take my numbers and put it to a benchmark...but as it stands now..I see nothing...just a bunch of useless numbers that people in current gear doing current content are proud to have public. If this parsing tool was to be official and public for all...well...not everyone is 70th level in alpha savage gear.

Not everyone participating in Savage is full i400 in full Savage gear either; the tier just started.

A parser has to be used in conjunction with another analysis tool in order for someone to effectively learn with it (outside of seeing their numbers compared to other similarly geared individuals and thinking “that seems kind of low... I wonder why”). You also have to be able to read and understand the data within FFLogs to understand what it’s trying to tell you, as well as have the motivation and open-mindedness to improve.

FFLogs is just one example, but there’s a new xivanalysis tool that was developed by people to specifically address optimization for specific jobs, and it’s used in conjunction with a parser and an upload to FFLogs. I was toying around with it last night actually, looking at my groups weekly Chaos clear. Sadly, BRD is currently not supported, but every other job we had was (PLD, WAR, MNK, DRG, MCH, SCH, AST).

For each one, it provided a checklist of things one should look out for with regards to optimizing rotations: for example, the PLD analysis addressed how many FoF windows only had 0~1 Goring Blade applications within their window as opposed to 2 applications, which is what one should aim for; it also had information about Holy Spirit usage. AST has checklists for the amount of Draws/Sleeve Draws they missed within the encounter. DRG has Blood of the Dragon uptime analysis, and Nastrond optimization.

All jobs have a standard timeline mapping out the skills they used (and showing when they overlap with raid buffs or when they come off cooldown), and they also address things like triple-weaving, and tell you exactly where you weaved and what you weaved; that is along with a message stating to avoid weaving more than 2 oGCDs within a GCD window.

With regards to DPS per item level, there is currently no way to determine this save for historical data, which in and of itself will probably not always be that accurate. These first few weeks are when most raiders are in i380 crafter/normal mode gear, so they could be used as a benchmark for i380. But this will skew in the future because statics/individuals that progress faster will gear up faster (provided RNG is kind to them with drop), widening the gap between i380 and i400.

What would be useful would be if FFLogs would consider things like your current gear with regards to rankings, but that is not a function it currently offers, and I am not sure how the developers of the site would go about implementing it. It is not something that I am against, but it is also not something I have an easy answer to with regards to implementation.

I also think that FFLogs should go back to filtering out DPS with Balance and DPS without Balance like they had in Creator back when Balance was +20% for a naked one, +10% for AOE, and +30% for Enhanced. That way you get more of a raw number, and not a Balance-fed number—even though it fairly easy to tell when someone was fed Balances if you know where to look for the information. At that point, you can use the rDPS calculator to determine how much damage Balance gave them, and subtract that from their total DPS to find out what their actual damage would be like sans Balance feeding.

[RuleofThree]

With regards to DPS per item level, there is currently no way to determine this save for historical data, which in and of itself will probably not always be that accurate. These first few weeks are when most raiders are in i380 crafter/normal mode gear, so they could be used as a benchmark for i380. But this will skew in the future because statics/individuals that progress faster will gear up faster (provided RNG is kind to them with drop), widening the gap between i380 and i400.

SO what you guys are telling me is that unless you are in relatively current gear, you are forced to assume your results are ok, based upon rotations and similar data? There is no hard and fast data that suggests 'ok, based on this sample in 3.0 24-man raids, it looks like a person in best gear at the time, can push out 'x' dps. Currently, in same iLevel gear, I'm pushing out 'y' dps. I wonder what I'm doing wrong for the gear and skills available to me at my level

...you are forced to guess?

I mean. I guess I could go out and put on iLevel180 gear as a dps, run a dungeon appropriate for that iLevel range, and see what I get? But again, how do I know that the number I got is accurate, if I have no sample data to base it off of?

[HyoMinPark]

SO what you guys are telling me is that unless you are in relatively current gear, you are forced to assume your results are ok, based upon rotations and similar data? There is no hard and fast data that suggests 'ok, based on this sample in 3.0 24-man raids, it looks like a person in best gear at the time, can push out 'x' dps. Currently, in same iLevel gear, I'm pushing out 'y' dps. I wonder what I'm doing wrong for the gear and skills available to me at my level

...you are forced to guess?

I mean. I guess I could go out and put on iLevel180 gear as a dps, run a dungeon appropriate for that iLevel range, and see what I get? But again, how do I know that the number I got is accurate, if I have no sample data to base it off of?

If you consistently parse content and take note of your own gear or the gear of others, you can very easily tell when someone is falling behind. But that comes with familiarizing yourself with DPS trends. If you have a BLM in i370, they should be pushing 6,000 DPS easily, even breaking 7,000. If they’re at 4,000 though? That’s way too low. A BRD in i370 should be pushing 5,500 minimum; breaking 6,000 if they’re really good (and have the appropriate comp).

i180 is going to be skewed now since that’s from the previous expansion, all previous expansion content has been nerfed, and a lot of jobs do not have the same 60 rotation that they did in Heavensward. But we aren’t talking about damage in i180/level 60. We’re talking about the damage people should have in current Extremes and Savage content, which is level 70, i360/i370 minimum, and i380 is currently “standard” since not enough people have upgraded to i400 (the current cap).

I understand wanting benchmarks, but it doesn’t take much to see when someone is falling behind based on the gear they are wearing if you know what to look for.

[RuleofThree]

If you consistently parse content and take note of your own gear or the gear of others, you can very easily tell when someone is falling behind. But that comes with familiarizing yourself with DPS trends. If you have a BLM in i370, they should be pushing 6,000 DPS easily, even breaking 7,000. If they’re at 4,000 though? That’s way too low. A BRD in i370 should be pushing 5,500 minimum; breaking 6,000 if they’re really good (and have the appropriate comp).

i180 is going to be skewed now since that’s from the previous expansion, all previous expansion content has been nerfed, and a lot of jobs do not have the same 60 rotation that they did in Heavensward. But we aren’t talking about damage in i180/level 60. We’re talking about the damage people should have in current Extremes and Savage content, which is level 70, i360/i370 minimum, and i380 is currently “standard” since not enough people have upgraded to i400 (the current cap).

I understand wanting benchmarks, but it doesn’t take much to see when someone is falling behind based on the gear they are wearing if you know what to look for.

So while an official parcer in the game would undoubtably be a good 'learning tool.' It would be only for current content. The moment it becomes outdated content, no one cares anymore. While that may be useful for the modern raider, or for someone that is level 70 looking to get in to raiding...it's not useful at all for the person currently leveling. He gets to look at his dps in Say...Void Ark, and just assume it is good at this point in time, or go with what appearantly is being suggested, and not care until it is relevant...at level 70.

Seems to me if you want to advocate using a parser as an official learning tool...it should be useful for all levels not just current savage or extremes. Granted, I'm sure only the elitest of the elite care what dps output is at level 45, but I'd say by Alexander Savage - and the iLevel there about - having benchmarks that say 'alright, in around this iLevel area, 'x' job should be pushing around 3,000dps.' This way you are knowing whether or not the best you can be at that iLevel rather than just hoping you are doing it right, and checking when you are 70.

[Mirch]

"wow 1 less unit dps compared to the top player of ur job, u better uninstall l2p gitgud, first we kick, then we blacklist"

truestory

[Dualgunner]

So parsers are toxic because they might cause an unquanitifiable harm somewhere, somehow, because someone who was gonna be an asshole anyway will be an asshole but this time with numbers.

Therefore SE should never provide a mod API or official parser support, or official battle analysis.

Should we also delete chat outside of Feast too to reduce harassment? Sure just like in feast people will work around it to still be assholes (Good game!) But if it protects even one person from harassment its worth depriving the playbase of a good tool.

[Dualgunner]

Yes you can! Compare logs and look at casts. Look at buff windows, compare downtime, it shows deaths and debuffs taken as well. Lots of details that don't care about your item level.

What content were you running when you were called a bad DRK just because of your gear?