How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Do you not get that if you try and do any hard content with randoms, you are going to get these issues? Do you think a parser is going to change this? It won't. Farming 99 tokens, yeesh, like its easier to do this with people whom you don't know, can leave at a moments notice, can vary widely in skill even if they use a parser, can be argumentative, and more. You think its a parser issue when its a random issue, and there's never going to be a time when pugs are going to be "solved" because we have a parser. Smart people build statics and do content in them; the raiders in this game are trying to fix something that can't be fixed, when the fix is to do content with people you trust.

Actually, it's quite easy if you get decently competent people. No, that doesn't mean orange caliber WF raiders. Even an average player is perfectly fine, provided they're putting forth an effort and contributing at a decent rate, i.e., a Samurai doing in the ballpark of 6k. Funny enough, I pugged Tsukiyomi EX with four randoms and three friends. We wound up doing parse runs and trying to phase her early and skip the second half of phase two. Four randoms and we're pulling meme shit because everyone knew what they were doing, we're friendly and contributed. Walked away with a dozen or so clears in only a couple hours. Likewise, I met my BFF in a random party whom I now raid with. If I followed your sagely, totally not bias at all, advice, I wouldn't have either of these experiences. I suppose it's just pure toxic of me to put in an actual effort.

Here's the difference, Riyah. When I started tanking Shinryu EX, I joined learning parties despite having cleared multiple times. I even had the dog. Why was I in learning parties? Because I didn't know the fight from a tank perspective and wanted to brush up on mechanics so I wouldn't be a liability. Meanwhile, in a Tsukiyomi EX party, I have a Samurai doing a 1,000 DPS less than me despite having better gear. But when I mention our damage is low, he calls me shit.

So... who's the toxic person in this scenario? I'll give you one guess who had a magical abacus and who didn't.

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get. There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently. Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.

People who try and improve will continue doing so through learning parties. Contrary to popular belief, raiders are pretty chill if you're putting forth an effort. I've partied with World First raiders and most of them have all been quite helpful. The only people a parse keeps out are lazy, inconsiderate people who feel entitled to your time. If someone's too intimated to improve because parsers are now okay publicly, they have no business being in farm or clear parties until they're ready. How do you they'll feel getting kicked silently, with no explanation whatsoever on what they're doing wrong?

[Aerlana]

what on earth would you guys ever do if the endgame were based around 24 man raids? If you can't get 7 other people as friends in an mmo to do raid content, there's something wrong. It's not like you need to spend 4 hour farming a pop and two hours fighting the pop boss or anything.

To answer specificaly to the sentence i did quote : Illness, hollidays, different IRL. When you get 3 night a week to do sadic content, and you decide that primals will be out of those days. Not sure you can have all. Real life before anything else !
So yes, sometime, from a team of 8 people, you finally drop to 7, 6 or even less...
My static we were 9 to limit this matter. allowing to run 51 weeks a year (just "loot run" for christmas ) without needing any pick up, while allowing our members to go in hollidays, to the wedding of the sister, or the birthday of the nephew (or his own birthday). And in 2 years, i saw 8 weeks we had a matter to be sure to get 8 to the three weekly runs. We had to move some of the days ,but was not so easy. because everyone of us get his own personnal real life also.
I left my static because wanted to have all my 7 weekly evening free. they had to find anyone to take my spot. they didnt took the first showing up, they did time to choose anyone "good enough" to fit what they wanted to do.


now, for PvE content i only play wow. In this game full of toxicity, people manage to do full PUG group to 15, 20 or sometime more people to do content harder than Xtrem primals, i think it is also possible thing in FFXIV.

On one game, it is allow to say that some people are bad, that you dont want to carry them. it is ok to play with people you did personnally choose, with your own way to choose who can come. You can decide if you want only top players or ok with getting some "weak" one.
On the other game, doing this is being toxic. Thinking that some deadweight waste the time of the 7 others is toxic.


i read on this forum "you dont pay my sub" on topics about "how to play well" (like "heal have to DPS" and others). Yes it is right. YOU dont pay my sub also. You dont want me to do how to play? dont say me how to form my parties.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Why are bads going into roulettes by themselves or sneaking into farm parties, when they could run it solely with friends and not ruin someone's run?

[HyoMinPark]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

They complain when they set up dog farm parties or weekly 2-chest parties in PF, and people join who have absolutely no idea what they're doing on either their chosen job or in the content the party is running. Is this a crime? Is it a crime to ask that people know what they're doing when they join farm parties? To not lie about their experience? To not waste the time of 7 other people? I can't speak for you, but I don't like being lied to, nor having my time wasted when I'm trying to farm for a mount or get a weekly clear in. I don't like having my time wasted period.

I have plenty of friends who do Extremes, but we aren't always on at the same time. My static actually did Suzaku on an off-day for weapons, but I was unable to join due to real-life responsibilities. And they've offered to help me get my weapon for progression, but not all of them are available outside of scheduled raid times, and we'd rather spend that time progging Savage. Not clearing Suzaku Ex. So we will have to probably pick up a random or two. Especially if no one we know is available when we decide to do the content.

Hence why we Party Finder. But, again: is it a crime to expect some level of competency - a level that the content itself asks for - from people who join farm groups or weekly 2-chest runs? These aren't dungeons where you can get by not know what you're doing, or get by by eating all the AOEs, or get by not know the basics of your job. Especially now with a new tier; not everyone is geared enough to carry a weak link in some of the Savage floors, and, honestly, we shouldn't be having to carry weak links anyways.

People expect competency in the content because the content requires it. And they have every right to complain when someone shows up that is clearly not competent at the skill level the content requires, and just expects the other 7 people to deal with their short-comings. Like the RDM I once had in a weekly V6S party I joined back when I didn't have a static during Sigmascape: snuck into the party never having cleared, claimed to have "seen enrage" when we get into the instance and see the bonus message, and then spent the entire lockout dying to every mechanic (truly a feat in Chadarnook) to the point where both healers just left him on the ground for the last third of the fight. Because he was too much of a strain on their MP to raise and then die again before his Weakness/Brink fell off.

But, you know. The raiders who tell people like this to please learn the content/their jobs before they venture into Savage are the toxic, mean ones. Not the person who just lied and wasted 7 other people's time and resources.

[Aerlana]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

So... if you want to get a farm party that does kills fast (to do as much as kill possible during the time you allow for this farm) you do it with people you know, and not in PF.
If you cant get 7 friends to do it, so you HAVE TO go in PF to recruit ANYONE, maybe some you will have to carry and then build friendship... But with this new friend, you cant do the next primal farm. A friend is not "a good player" it is "a guy i like" ...

PF is a tool to help people to find each other. And then you set your preference. Even more when you have a target. And funfact, they finally can become friends... those you had in your interserv LS...
Yes you could also do friends in people with less focus on PvE content, but nothing will force you to take them for your farm.

Not because you dont have enough friend to do a content, i have to lower the expetations for the team? accept people that will maybe create some wipe?

[Daibunnie]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Why are casuals joining parties they have no business being in? If you can't even play properly, you need to stay out of the clear and farm parties and spend more time actually learning how to play your class and learn the mechanics of the fight instead of dragging everyone down with you just because of your own greed to get a clear. Raiders expect everyone to at least know how to play the game before even attempting savage content. In this game, you have casuals who can't even recognize what a stack marker is nor even understand the basics of their own class at endgame. In most games, these kinds of players are left behind and no one would want them in any sort of party.

[odintius]

I'm not against parsers, but at some point you no longer need a parser if you have your rotation memorized that works or is good enough. Majority is getting the experience of the mechanics of the fight too keep dps up time to perform that rotation. A parser isn't going to perform that aspect of the fight once you have it down you're naturally going to see your dps increase if you have a proper rotation in the first place. Unless we're talking about act trigger/dbm which help call out boss mechanics that are coming because allot of these fight are scripted. /Shrugs

[KaivaC]

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Riyah, if you couldn't even clear v3s to even see said farm parties, why are you here trying to preach what etiquette should be?

[MageBlack]

Love this thread, It answers its own question and not in the way it set out to. But carry on arguing guys! I got a fresh bowl of popcorn!