How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Shurrikhan]

I agree with you, by and large, there would be no change. People are dicks, they always will be, this will never change. A dick with the power of a parser is going to be a dick regardless of if it is sanctioned by SE or not. My point is that I would much rather have the first alternative, hands down. I know I'm not an A rank tank, I know the numbers. My gear isn't valued at 14,000,000 and doesn't have 5 slots of materia. I mean, for god's sake, my 'main' is white mage....I'm tanking for the tank mounts...I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the finer points of dark knight...of course I'm not going to be putting out 5,000dps...I don't main the =censored= job in order to put the time and effort in to get 5,000dps

At least with the first option you have, I'm publicly shamed by verbal abuse. The other two allies sit on and watch like a circle gathering for a fight. Interesting to watch, but they aren't gonna get involved. The second options not only verbally abuses me, but publicly shames me with numbers as well. Now, the gathering crowd gets to side with the 'facts...' the numbers. Now...instead of potentially getting the griefer kicked for verbal abuse. The other two, are going to look at the numbers, and think 'Yea, he is bad...let's kick him.' Nevermind the fact that tank isn't my main. Forget the fact that I'm playing an off role that I don't often touch that much. Ignore the notion that all my money and gear goes to white mage, not dark night. Let's instead look at the numbers, and assume this is a dark knight main that is bad.

And all because I'm not an elite level, Teir 1, God moding O11S on Day two of release? I'm sorry I didn't learn how to godmode Dark Knight. All I wanted was the tank mounts...I didn't know I had to be an expert in all things tank now.

Also, I still want to know what the hell kind of world Shurrikan and Choir live in...because I guarentee you that is not how the second conversation would go down. Not with a stranger. It would be pretty much like the screenshot I gave in one of my posts, only with numbers generated from a legal parser. The saying 'Do something good, no one notices or cares. Do something bad, and the whole world will know.' comes to mind. If you aren't their expectations of tank/dps/healer, you will hear about it...and it will not be in the peacemaking combiya way you and other seem to like to fluff it.

While we may be in agreement insofar as you mention, I feel like we retain a fundamental disagreement. Or, a few, actually:

1. In my (obviously anecdotal) experience, and that of every friend I've discussed this with (they're probably pretty damn tired of me "taking the forums home with me" at this point), people are just as likely to kick or berate based on suspicion as fact.
   
   
2. No one expects you to be god tier. Because those who feel obliged to improve themselves are the most frequent parsers at the moment, there is a slight bias when considering their own performance towards at least the skill level of those they generally party with. However, they rarely ever apply this to, say, DF, where the expectation is to be "passably competent". Unless you're beneath that, no one's going to take the effort to comment on your performance unless it effort required to make improvement, given the relatively small chance a random person will listen to the unsolicited advice without becoming hostile, is proportionately well less than the benefit obtainable. (In other words, they'd likely mention to you no more than that they can Clemency themselves during Req on AoEs so you can keep Gravity spamming or that you can soak the mobs in water in order to remove their damage resistance buff.)
   
   
3. That "world" is simply one where you often meet people largely like oneself (likely coincidental/perceptual in my case), and tend to form something a community from those likable people and experiences. I offer advice if I'm certain I know something that could be useful and highly suspect that the recipient will be open to that advice. In return, I've learned a lot from others, sometimes just in the course of DF runs (back in the day).
   
   That's not to say that I don't run into princess healers or the occasional troll or tank trying to hold the group hostage, but a third of said healers I've also unmade through gradual challenge and encouragement over the run and most of my groups were fine with just no-tanking the dungeon as a matter of challenge/spite and it's easy enough to ignore a single troll (basically, until there's a pair who can kick you on a whim just before the last boss, which then feels oppressive the whole run by sheer latent threat). Going in as a tank-healer pair, a friend and I have often outperformed the DPS. Sometimes they're receptive to advice, given between GCDs when APM is low; sometimes not. Oftentimes the goal is to at least get them up to our performance, diminishing our own chances in the hidden friendly competition bit by bit until we've failed if we haven't... lost. The conversation model I gave in the second was much more exasperated than most I've run into. You can call it a novel outlook, but it's one that was has happened modeled to me several times since I've started XIV.
   
   I've had my share of unfair kicks, too. Three times now I've been kicked from a run just before the last boss. In only one of them had there even been words exchanged beforehand.
   
   tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

EDIT:

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance. If one doesn't have time to run a test tens of times, it's already often used in order to form a clearer comparison between, say, openers (where the actual parsing may be necessary over pure theory-crafting if, say, latency or the resultant clipping will be a factor in the outcome).

[RuleofThree]

tl;dr: It's the same world, just different circles. ...And arguably the late-night crowds (I'm on usually from 12 to 4 AM for roulettes and the like) do have higher average levels of competence. Not always the most talkative crowd, in so far as any disparate individuals can be considered in average, but, especially when leveling, they're usually a fair and friendly bunch on the whole.

Will just have to take your word for it, and envy you then. Cause the 'circle' I'm in is cold, and unforgiving. You offer help, such as my example of spending 5 hours helping a group of seven past Shinryu Extreme, and you don't even get acknowledged for it. You make a mistake, and you don't hear the end of it until you either voluntarily leave, or they kick you. But this is digressing, another issue entirely involving one's thoughts on the community as a whole...not what this thread is about.

I still remain by the notion that an official parser isn't going to do anything. It will just give people a reason to talk about numbers openly in the game - if not yours, then brag or lie about their own, and at the end of the day, even if an ingame parser was added, people will still just use ACT, as it will offer the numbers of those they feel are 'bads.' Either way, it's a boiling pot for bullying when put in the wrong hands. Once agaim I am for the notion of people using parsers. But I think it should remain third party, and behind closed doors. Something to remain along the liness of speculating someone is parsing, but never truly knowing.

[Legion88]

There is one thing I think needs to be involved in any broad parser, though, and I've been pushing for it since ARR: Relative Potency Parsing. Essentially, you strip away the variance given by primary stats, instances of critical strikes or direct hits (using the chance itself as a rPot-modifier, just as with Det), thus squishing gear variance and removing RNG as to provide a clearer picture of performance.

This is the best solution, so you can easily say how good someone performes on his level of gear, because potency per second doesn't really change with gear, except of SkS and SpS based jobs.
But even this is only a minor inconsistence.
With just potency parsing it is more or less easy to compare the performance, because performance is not DPS including crit luck etc., it's the execution of the rotation.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

I originally started neutral to the idea of an ingame parser, I didn't really care one way or the other.
I just try and do the best I can when I play...


But, over time, hearing the debates on both sides of the parser discussion...
I found that the arguments of the anti-parser people just seemed nonsensical.

They converted me to be pro-parser.





There is a problem of obfuscating data in this game...
They refuse to put in a way for people to see how well they're actually performing, but continually put in requirements on that performance in the form of DPS checks.

That just seems monumentally silly.


I can't see how people having the objective information available to them, which would allow them to help the people underperforming, is a bad thing.





Harassment over a parser is a non issue, because that's already against the terms of service for the game.
Adding a tool doesn't change that fact.

Perhaps the gm's may have to look into reports of parser harassment...
But that's their job in the first place!
They should be willing to do that... (Or find another form of employment, if they don't want to do what their job requires)

[van_arn]

Because SE often do not take a report seriously unless you are the person who was targeted with the bad behaviour. They don't do much of anything if you were merely an observer. I have reported nasty behaviour before and was basically told that because it wasn't directed at me they can't do anything.

A lot of people don't realise they can report bad behaviour, they don't know how to, or they feel so awful afterwards they just give up on any justice. Given SE don't take observer reports seriously for their official content, likely the same would be applied if the game got its own parser. Which would mean that if you happen to never be a target of parser related harassment but see it happen all the time...you can do nothing about it except for advise the victim to report it and hope that they do.

That's exactly how harassment tickets should be handled, though. You're not a hall monitor, so encourage people to file a harassment ticket but it's not your business to be offended on someone else's behalf.

[Penthea]

That's exactly how harassment tickets should be handled, though. You're not a hall monitor, so encourage people to file a harassment ticket but it's not your business to be offended on someone else's behalf.

Right so I should turn a blind eye to any form of harassment just because it didn't happen to me. Sounds like a wonderful healthy way to maintain a friendly community.

By the way it is my business if I'm in the group where the harassment happened. I have little choice but watch it happen. I have to endure the dungeon progress slowing down or coming to a standstill because of it. I have to wait for someone else to join the group if someone leaves over it. Or I could leave if watching it bothered me enough, in which case I do feel personally offended by it.

Two weeks ago I left a group because two players were harassing a sprout tank. I advised him to report them and I left because I couldn't stand being in their company anymore. I go to dungeons to kill things and get loot. Not to watch people be horrible to a sprout and troll him. This was not me being offended on the sprout's behalf. I was offended because I went in to get some xp and what I got was two people being bullies making the experience unpleasant.

But apparently I'm not allowed to find something unpleasant because I wasn't the primary target. Hmm.

[RuleofThree]

Right so I should turn a blind eye to any form of harassment just because it didn't happen to me. Sounds like a wonderful healthy way to maintain a friendly community.

By the way it is my business if I'm in the group where the harassment happened. I have little choice but watch it happen. I have to endure the dungeon progress slowing down or coming to a standstill because of it. I have to wait for someone else to join the group if someone leaves over it. Or I could leave if watching it bothered me enough, in which case I do feel personally offended by it.

Two weeks ago I left a group because two players were harassing a sprout tank. I advised him to report them and I left because I couldn't stand being in their company anymore. I go to dungeons to kill things and get loot. Not to watch people be horrible to a sprout and troll him. This was not me being offended on the sprout's behalf. I was offended because I went in to get some xp and what I got was two people being bullies making the experience unpleasant.

But apparently I'm not allowed to find something unpleasant because I wasn't the primary target. Hmm.

That's exactly how harassment tickets should be handled, though. You're not a hall monitor, so encourage people to file a harassment ticket but it's not your business to be offended on someone else's behalf.

It's disgusting, but he's right. I mean, this is basically like the 'good Samaritan' laws in the US. A person that witness abuse on the street, or an accident, or someone seriously ill doesn't have to do anything to assist them. It's to protect them against any attempt the person who was abusing/in the accident/seriously ill to attempt to sue you for say...a bruised rib while doing CPR or the like. People are dicks, and they will turn a good deed against you in a flash if they think they can get something from it.

This is a very loose form of that. A third party observer witnessing the abuse might turn in said abuse with good intentions, but it would be relatively easy for the person you are defending to throw you under the bus as well, claiming you were 'egging on the bully' or 'were just as bad by not saying anything, and just watching.' It is again, disgusting, but better this way...this way It's the main victims own actions against the offenders, nothing else is in the way.

[Derio]

The real question is it really optional once you put it in the game?

I have played several F2P games that have a public parser for each instance and those games can be pretty toxic. But at the same time there are also other ones where you can choose to hide your numbers from the rest of the group, which in many cases you still get grief from others for not sharing.


The only way it could work in FFXIV is if they were personal parsers.

[Liam_Harper]

I don't think people realize that right now public parsers are a thing and legal. People have and use ACT and Enix's stance on that is go for it as long as you don't use it for abuse. The only difference is that it requires downloading a third party program, not everyone knows about it and PS4 has no access at all.

This means a portion of the playerbase has access to your dps and has done for a long while. The difference with not having an optional ingame parser is that currently you don't have access to your own dps or theirs or any other info. I can't see how an optional parser hidden to other players would be more toxic than the current situation. Right now, the abusers have the tools and the rest probably don't even know ACT exists.

Enix really need to be consistent on their stance on this. Either ban ACT outright or embrace the fact that parsers exist and players like having data, instead of this clunky in-between where both they and we all pretend it's not happening and everything in ff14 is happy bunnies and cooperative friendly groups. And if they want friendlier groups, actually do something and crack down on harrasment reports.

[van_arn]

- The option to hide your numbers to other players (It appear as "Hide" or something in other people parser).
- Game masters who actually look at this and not fall in the "different playstyles" bullshit, because in this case does not apply, and punish players actually abusing it.
- Only available on premade parties and dummies.
- Heavily pursue any party finder with "Only XXX parser and must be active not hide or kick".

First, I appreciate your desire to see if there's a way to make this possible. However, what you've listed isn't actionable due to the player veto.

-The option to hide from the system means people will eventually be excluded from content merely for the act of hiding. Gms can't block this, simply because all it takes to veto this restriction is a silent, unexplained kick of the hidden player. Remove kick, and players would disband and reform without the hidden player. See where this is going? Hide yourself and you stigmatize yourself; you have something to hide.
-Gms are actually pretty wise to lean so heavily on playstyle differences, because that's exactly what happens so often. There's no sense in blocking someone from the game if oil and water didn't mix, but things were handled with the ingame tools like votekick or vote abandon. If GMs were to remove playstyle differences as a justification they could use, you would see the player veto manifest as a harassment report on the player that couldn't outdamage the healer because they were "obviously trolling, nobody can be that bad unless they try." "They turned our perfect run and they did it intentionally, ban pls"
-While we currently do not see numbers in pf, that doesn't mean even now people don't get mysteriously booted for no given reason because someone looked up their history online, or did a few runs and suddenly got kicked to the curb because they were doing half of the damage of a healer. Of the ones you listed, this one's probably the most vetoed on pf even now.

Furthermore, limiting any ingame tool through the terms of service only means more people will develop ESP, or find any hundred other ways to talk about things they're not talking about and sidestep any restrictions placed on the ingame tool: in effect this sidesteps any restrictions.

Of course, ask any of these players how they developed esp that gives them such precise information and they'd swear up and down they don't use third party utilities, because of course third party utilities aren't permitted.