Thank you for increased difficulty

[Dualgunner]

There's two flaws with this.

1. You assume players will eat their veggies, i.e. do the content they need but don't want.

Plenty of people did Eureka, yes.

2. You assume they can successfully raise their skill by doing it.

You assume that people are incapable of improvement.

[RiyahArp]

You assume that people are incapable of improvement.

People can improve to a point, then it gets incredibly hard to go further. And the threshold varies from person to person. At some point you just hit your wall, and its up to you if you want to invest so much in climbing it. And then there comes the cliff, where no effort will ever help. I don't think people here have discussed what they think everyone playing the game can reach, or how realistic is its. I mean, there's never going to be a time in this game where 50% of players complete ex trials when relevant, short of the game shrinking to the hardcore players.

[Lambdafish]

People can improve to a point, then it gets incredibly hard to go further. And the threshold varies from person to person. At some point you just hit your wall, and its up to you if you want to invest so much in climbing it. And then there comes the cliff, where no effort will ever help. I don't think people here have discussed what they think everyone playing the game can reach, or how realistic is its. I mean, there's never going to be a time in this game where 50% of players complete ex trials when relevant, short of the game shrinking to the hardcore players.

- Hard content may not improve player skill, but it would be designed to facilitate improvement, even if not successful.

- Faceroll content not only lacks the facilitation of improvement, but also encourages complacency, laziness, and the expectation of more faceroll content (plenty of evidence of this in the community).

You choose which is preferred.



Edit: Actually... You know what, I'll elaborate and add more variables into the discussion. You talk about ex trials, and how people won't do those, but then we are talking about the difference between 4 and 8 man content. When you up the player count to 8, that's 3 more players who have their own need from the fight. When you have a smaller group of 4 in a dungeon, if the expectation is difficulty and a few wipes, then there is a higher chance of teamwork and individual contribution. Move this over to a real-world example where you are collaborating in a team of 4, and a team of 8, the dynamic is different, and it is arguably easy to learn in a group of 4 than a group of 8.

So ultimately, shouldn't difficulty be taught and experienced in 4 man instances to teach players how to handle 8 man instances? Rather than throwing them into ex trials with faceroll 4 man content being their main experience up to that point. If players experience difficulty in an easier environment, wouldn't it make the ex trial and raid scene more healthy because people have been conditioned to the challenges available there without the pressure of being in an 8 man team?

[RiyahArp]

So ultimately, shouldn't difficulty be taught and experienced in 4 man instances to teach players how to handle 8 man instances?

No, because in theory the 4 man stuff is harder than the 8 man. When feast first came out, the practice mode was 8 man and ranked 4 man, for example. This is because its harder with only one healer, one tank, and two dps than with double it. There's less margin for error. It's just SE hasn't made much hard 4 man content much yet. The one they did, Rath EX, they completely randomized the mobs actions, and had a second phase where healing and tanking didn't matter as much. The story mode trials are what teaches you to play harder 8 man content, not the 4 mans.

[Lambdafish]

No, because in theory the 4 man stuff is harder than the 8 man. When feast first came out, the practice mode was 8 man and ranked 4 man, for example. This is because its harder with only one healer, one tank, and two dps than with double it. There's less margin for error. It's just SE hasn't made much hard 4 man content much yet. The one they did, Rath EX, they completely randomized the mobs actions, and had a second phase where healing and tanking didn't matter as much. The story mode trials are what teaches you to play harder 8 man content, not the 4 mans.

OK, we are talking about two different things now. Mechanically you may be correct, but only for one person. Its not about margin of error, its about lumping all the responsibility onto one healer. The best setup for accessible learning would be 5 man content (1 tank, 2 DPS, 2 heal). This would eliminate healer burden, and keep the social setting managable for learning.

[Ramesses]

OK, we are talking about two different things now. Mechanically you may be correct, but only for one person. Its not about margin of error, its about lumping all the responsibility onto one healer. The best setup for accessible learning would be 5 man content (1 tank, 2 DPS, 2 heal). This would eliminate healer burden, and keep the social setting managable for learning.

I see what you mean about the 5-man party idea (which is essentially to ease the burden of the work on just one healer). However, this is one of the reasons why the early 4-man dungeons (Sastasha, Toto-Rak etc) are structured to provide a learning curve for roles. Even from the Alpha test, the Devs would turbo-level us from around level 12 to 20 just so that they could observe our ability to cope with those dungeons.

In 4-man parties, healers are one of the backbones of the party... which is why it is critical that the healer knows how to deliver. In fact, a good number of Duty Finder angry stories revolve around issues with a bad healer or tank. The core of the matter is that for many new players, in an effort to power through the early parts of the game and catch up, they play through these "learning" dungeons just once (usually during the storyline) and then head over to FATES and PotD / HoH to level up.

Therefore, some don't get that rigourous, skill-building, learning program and by the time they're into level 50 and 60, they are not able to be highly adept players.

And that right there is the key word... adept.

For many of us that started in 1.0 or 2.0 where there were no real swift methods of leveling (except chaining FATES in Bluefrog), we played through those learning dungeons over and over and over for loot and exp. We kept getting owned by ridiculous game mechanics like clamshells in Sastasha but we steadily learnt from it... and that's what makes players very adept.