Why do tanks need Determination stat still when they have Tenacity?

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

[Megguido]

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

Well, yes and no.

Going Tenacity instead of Determination sure is a DPS loss, but a minor one. Meld are worth a couple hundreds of substats, which will boost your damage by like 2-4% depending on which substat you choose. Basically, if you don't parse and optimize, you won't see any difference between full DET and full TEN melds. So, yeah, meld what makes you feel good unless you're going for the 90th+ percentile on fflogs. I could go full Tenacity melds on the left side, and only lose around 0.5% - 1% damage.

But, Strength melds on the right side are a significant increase to a tank's DPS. I mean, meld whatever you want, but at least please put STR melds on your accessories. STR materias are cheap and gives way more damage than any Crit/Det/DH materia.

[...]

As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

[...] I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

Basically this. Melding DET, DH, TEN etc... won't make your DPS skyrocket. It's much more about optimizing the way you play rather than the way you build. Sure, building with the "right" stats will allow for a higher DPS, and is part of optimizing. But, the BiS gearset won't compensate for playing poorly.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

[Kabooa]

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

ALl tanks have access to rampart.
Paladins further have Sentinel (40% /180), Bulwark (Shield chance, unreliable, used for fluff or gauge buildilng), and Shelltron (28%, one hit)
Warriors have Vengeance (30% / 120), Raw intuition (20% on physical), Inner Beast (never used), and Thrill of Battle (+20% EHP, usually used for deepz)
Dark Nights have Shadow Wall (30% /120), Dark Mind (30% magic / 60), The Blackest Night (+20% EHP)

The difference between 30% and 40% doesn't really matter, so effectively the 30% can be used more often. Sentinel doesn't let you survive anything Vengeance / Shadow wall won't. Bulwark is a higher chance to block damage so you don't use it on things that can kill you. Shelltron can be hit off by other factors before the big hit comes in, so The Blackest Night still provides a layer no matter the circumstance.

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.

[Megguido]

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.

All tanks can MT and OT, it's more about the efficient use of cooldowns from both tanks. Though it doesn't matter in dungeons or normal raids / trials, in extreme / savage modes PLD really shines as OT. Once PLD used Rampart and Sentinel, they're kinda naked since Sentinel has such a long cooldown (whereas WAR and DRK have more defensive abilities / shorter cooldowns). Used correctly, Intervention and Cover are very powerful abilities when you're OT.

Also, PLD loses tons of damage by pulling the boss and staying in Shield Oath (about 25% of their damage, which is around 1000 DPS) and they struggle to switch stances during a fight, unlike WAR and DRK. That's why you prefer having the other tank pull (then you can provoke and tank in Sword Oath for example).

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

So in the interest of honesty, re: damage mitigation, I thought I'd share that the final phase of O12 was a bit of an eye opener for me. I discovered in the process of learning the fight that if I wasn't careful, I would indeed run out of defensive CDs. Prior to O12, I never experienced hard hitting boss attacks and TBs in such rapid succession that I ended up burning through CDs and my Oath Gauge so quickly, but I think I now understand what context some of you were speaking from. So yes, I'd say given that the other two jobs have more CDs at their disposal with shorter duty cycles, it does place them at an advantage in that fight.

To tell you the truth, though, I think it was about time that WAR and DRK were given a chance to be the heroes for once. ^^ It also means this is an opportunity to improve my own skills and make up for those shortcomings.

Sometimes the best challenge is rocking a "sub-optimal" job and defying everyone's expectations.

[Megguido]

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

I mean, PLD self-mitigation is less good than DRK and WAR, but it's the best at mitigating damage on others. Cover, Intervention, Passage of Arms and Divine Veil are mitigation, but for the team. DRK and WAR can't protect an ally or the team so well.