Why do tanks need Determination stat still when they have Tenacity?

[DRKoftheAzure]

The only reason I can think of is because Healers Piety stat is VERY undertuned to where they don't even consider it a role stat...

Tenacity basically does what Determination does but with one extra thing that makes it worth getting, and that is damage mitigation.

Tanks shouldn't need a weaker version of a stat that is their role stat that just so happens to be available to all roles.

The only two solutions to fix this in the long term is buff Piety so that it has the same effects as Determination and make Determination DPS only stat, or delete Determination, Tenacity, and Piety altogether and buff the actual main stats.

And before someone says Direct Hit Rate is the DPS role stat; no it's not, it's available to all Roles, it's just post Heavensward content the DPS are hogging all of the Direct Hit Rate, which they also need to delete Direct Hit Rate as stat.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Determination scales better than Tenacity, which is why tanks value the former more.

As for deleting those respective stats. That would reduce our already static gear progression to literally nothing. Every piece would be Crit/DH/SkS. That's a very boring system.

[Cabalabob]

Direct hit is meant to be a dps only stat, but because it replaced accuracy it is currently on ARR and HW tank gear in abundance, so instead of locking the stat to dps like they did with piety and parry (stats that were primarily only on tank and healer gear) and going back to change every piece of tank gear that had accuracy on it to something else, they just left direct hit available to everyone and stopped putting it on their gear going forward. They obviously didn’t predict that players would value it over any other stat on tanks and healers so it became basically the only meld choice.

As for determination, the dps side is more potent than tenacity. Picture it like determination gives 100 damage while tenacity gives 50 damage and 50 mitigation. And since excess mitigation in this game is considered superfluous, determination is more valued due to it giving a greater dps increase.

[DaulBan]

As for determination, the dps side is more potent than tenacity. Picture it like determination gives 100 damage while tenacity gives 50 damage and 50 mitigation. And since excess mitigation in this game is considered superfluous, determination is more valued due to it giving a greater dps increase.

This, but to put Specific numbers, it takes an 1449 TEN stat in order to reduce incoming damage by 5% and increase damage by 5%. For the same amount of DET you get a 6.5% DPS increase without the damage taken reduction. It's about +.045% DPS per TEN, +.059% per DET. It's a fairly small gain, but one that adds up when you have 1500-2000 DET.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

[Megguido]

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

Well, yes and no.

Going Tenacity instead of Determination sure is a DPS loss, but a minor one. Meld are worth a couple hundreds of substats, which will boost your damage by like 2-4% depending on which substat you choose. Basically, if you don't parse and optimize, you won't see any difference between full DET and full TEN melds. So, yeah, meld what makes you feel good unless you're going for the 90th+ percentile on fflogs. I could go full Tenacity melds on the left side, and only lose around 0.5% - 1% damage.

But, Strength melds on the right side are a significant increase to a tank's DPS. I mean, meld whatever you want, but at least please put STR melds on your accessories. STR materias are cheap and gives way more damage than any Crit/Det/DH materia.

[...]

As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

[...] I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

Basically this. Melding DET, DH, TEN etc... won't make your DPS skyrocket. It's much more about optimizing the way you play rather than the way you build. Sure, building with the "right" stats will allow for a higher DPS, and is part of optimizing. But, the BiS gearset won't compensate for playing poorly.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

[Kabooa]

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

ALl tanks have access to rampart.
Paladins further have Sentinel (40% /180), Bulwark (Shield chance, unreliable, used for fluff or gauge buildilng), and Shelltron (28%, one hit)
Warriors have Vengeance (30% / 120), Raw intuition (20% on physical), Inner Beast (never used), and Thrill of Battle (+20% EHP, usually used for deepz)
Dark Nights have Shadow Wall (30% /120), Dark Mind (30% magic / 60), The Blackest Night (+20% EHP)

The difference between 30% and 40% doesn't really matter, so effectively the 30% can be used more often. Sentinel doesn't let you survive anything Vengeance / Shadow wall won't. Bulwark is a higher chance to block damage so you don't use it on things that can kill you. Shelltron can be hit off by other factors before the big hit comes in, so The Blackest Night still provides a layer no matter the circumstance.

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

[Megguido]

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing.

I mean, PLD self-mitigation is less good than DRK and WAR, but it's the best at mitigating damage on others. Cover, Intervention, Passage of Arms and Divine Veil are mitigation, but for the team. DRK and WAR can't protect an ally or the team so well.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.