Thread: Revelations from Patch 4.4

Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Garleans, Ascians, and You!

I'm not a fan that they were actually created by a supernatural force to be Evil. It kind of weakens the faction in that regard.

I feel that there is a small nuance:

Solus says he created the empire to sow chaos, not be evil. And what better way to create chaos then to arm a desperate people with machina and instill in them a belief that might is right and the rest of the world are savages that need to be conquered? Once the war machine is up and running the Ascians would have to do little except making sure no one sues for peace.

Yet they go a step further anyway. They instill a belief that Eikons are a blight that need to be destroyed. Then the Ascians actively teach the beastribes how to summon said Eikons... essentially fanning the flames. The result is an ever growing conflict, and with that chaos. Ascian!Solus was probably kicking back with a beer and popcorn watching everything unfold (until Lahabrea got himself killed)

Well, that was certainly a ride, though I'm still not sure whether I feel it was for the better or not.

MSQ

Revelations regarding Ascian involvement (and feelings about that aside), something about that final scene has been bothering me the more I think about it.

Varis, and presumably the imperial guards we see standing at the throne, are fully aware of the otherworldly nature of Solus. Solus's comments suggest that he was possessed for at least most his original life, if not all of it, and at least a few people have remarked on the feasibility of an "immaterial" Ascian producing a mortal offspring (the Galvus line). Though surprised by Varis shooting Solus, the guards don't move to act at that, or when he just reforms again feet away and continues his monologue as if nothing had happened. In fact, I find myself wondering if they could even see him reappear at all, but more on that in a moment.

Solus very clearly refers to Varis as "grandson", and at first glance that could just be taken as referring to the man he possessed, if that's solely their relation. As Solus and Varis have no qualms about speaking openly of the true nature of both the Empire and the Ascians' history and current events, though, why does Elidibus continue to refer to Varis as "Father"? Is it simple dedication to his role as Zenos? If so, I don't see the purpose in it when there's ostensibly no one in that room to be putting on an act for. The same goes for Solus implying blood relation to Varis. Elidibus behaving as though he has to defer to Varis also feels odd in this context. Couldn't another Ascian conceivably just possess Varis in order to carry out their goals in complete alignment? Again, even if it's just an act, who are they putting the act on for in that room? The player? I wouldn't think so, considering all that we know so far.

The entire exchange reads as if there's something deeper than is currently being acknowledged. Solus suggest that Varis has ample means "by his own hands" to enforce his/their agenda, in addition to his armies. It's possible that they're just trying to play their hand carefully now that they have an emperor in place who's willing to take all of this more or less in stride, to avoid the kind of chaos they don't want, and the kind the Scions are now attempting to cause, which is making the Ascians known to the general public. But to me, taken together, it also suggests that if Varis really is the corporeal blood descendant of an Ascian, there might be some more extraordinary nature to him, one he may not even be aware of, one with plot implications if it actually turned out to be the case.

It's possible, and probable, that this is totally off base. But as things stand now, it feels to me like there's even more to the relationship between these three than we've been shown so far.

Originally Posted by Alleo

About the Garlemald scene

Elidibus also seems to need a permission to act as Zenos. His acting in the scene made it look like he was sure to get the permission and was seemingly a bit annoyed to not even get an answer. But if Varis himself was against any of their actions why not just simply kill him, let an Ascian wear his body and Garlemald would have been in the hand of them once more without the need to talk to him at all.

Did they maybe only come back to influence Garlemald because there has been more unrest in the empire and the fear that there might be an outright rebellion? Is this why even Solus is back to remind Varis of his place and the goal of Garlemald? Or were they always there and controlled it? But if they truly controlled it, why the need for permission?

I have a feeling we're going to need, and probably get, more solid answers on the nature of Ascian possession before we can settle on concrete answers. For now, though, there's some information to work off of. We have at least three individuals so far who either are or have been possessed: Thancred, Zenos and Solus. Travanchet is a possible fourth, but not really relevant to the events taking place now in the main story yet?!?! Each of them were possessed under different circumstances, as well. Thancred was taken while still alive, and remained alive after we used a Weapon of Light to expel Lahabrea from him. Zenos's soul vacated his body, making way for Elidibus; this is important, because Zenos is also still alive, although in a new body, presumably through the Resonant. (Incidentally, I wonder what happened to his new body's original soul, too, and if his power is similar in nature to Ascian possession. During his brief reappearance, he seemed to be fully expecting to die after our fight.) Solus claims to have been "called bacK" to his role by Elidibus, which I think provides the best basis that Solus is, and always has been, an Ascian: if he's the same Solus who founded the Empire, as he claims, then his people saw him age through the years and "die". To be able to call on his original, younger form again would require him to have either kept a cloned body on ice (handwaving that possibility via Allag), or otherwise be able to "revert" to that form, an inherently extraordinary power.

As for why they're treading so carefully now, and specifically not making Varis a literal puppet, that may have to do with Ascian infighting as well. Elidibus has been consistent in portraying himself as separate from the other Ascian overlords, whose actions often at least appear to be contrary to his goals. It may be that he simply doesn't have someone he can trust enough to wield that power and not put it to poor use, but we'll need to get deeper into the story to make that sort of assumption. It could also be Elidibus being committed to his role as emissary, and doing his best not to assume direct control anymore than he needs to, though his comment on being ready to "kill the eikon-slayer" casts doubt on that, unless it's yet another layer of deception. Solus, if he is directly allied with Elidibus, doesn't seem to have the same compunctions about acting quickly and decisively. It makes me wonder why he waited until Elidibus left to speak with Varis, unless he was saying some things he didn't want the other to be there for. He seems to trust Elidibus's judgement, though.

From a historical perspective, it would be better for one of the Ascians to rule Garlemald, as one of them presided over its golden age. Which is possibly why they're not now. A Garlemald in unrest is one bordering on chaos, especially with its recent losses. And chaos is something in need of balancing out, via political factions like the Populares. So it seems Varis is going to be the critical figure in this triangle, for better or worse. The fully human(?) intimately familiar with the Ascians' goals, mroeso than our character at least, and one who wants little to nothing to do with it. For whatever reason, they're at least treating him as an important pawn, if not necessarily an "equal". The fact that they haven't completely steamrolled him yet suggests that either they can't, or more likely, there's some greater incentive somewhere not to.

As you mentioned, even always-cool Elidibus seems to be losing patience with him, so we're coming up on something that they need to be timely about.

Hopefully we get something in 4.5, because these are threads too long to be left hanging loose.

Re. Varis and Elidibus

Originally Posted by Cont13

why does Elidibus continue to refer to Varis as "Father"? Is it simple dedication to his role as Zenos? If so, I don't see the purpose in it when there's ostensibly no one in that room to be putting on an act for. The same goes for Solus implying blood relation to Varis. Elidibus behaving as though he has to defer to Varis also feels odd in this context. Couldn't another Ascian conceivably just possess Varis in order to carry out their goals in complete alignment? Again, even if it's just an act, who are they putting the act on for in that room? The player? I wouldn't think so, considering all that we know so far.

The deferring and asking permission to act could be part of Elidibus's 'just an emissary' act. "Of course I wouldn't think to tell you how to run your own country, I'm just representing another party with similar goals to yours, and I do happen to have some excellent ideas on how to achieve your aims. Just give me permission to act."

Calling him "Father", on the other hand... there's a possibility the guards don't know he's not the real Zenos (because even if they're sworn to secrecy, it's safer to not give them unnecessary secrets in the first place) - but also quite possible that Elidibus is doing it purely to mess with Varis: a cruel jolt every time he hears his son's voice call him Father, knowing it's a mockery and a lie.

(Was Varis looking at Elidibus at all in that scene? I think he had his back turned the whole time. Maybe he's trying hard to ignore the fact that it's Zenos's face and so Elidibus calls him "Father" just to push it back into his mind.)

Checking some quest scripts, I saw that this is now Yugiri's talk dialogue:

"I am minded to dispatch more shinobi to the provinces. We cannot have too many eyes searching for Master Alphinaud nor too many lips whispering the rumors pertaining to Zenos. "

So it seems Thancred's plan for sowing rumours about Zenos is still going ahead, whether it's a good idea or not.

And a stray thought on Omega:

It was totally a missed opportunity for Nero's long list of costs charged to the Ironworks to not include "coffee pot filling fee".

Frankly it's quite obvious that he used that word to tick him off

MSQ:

Garlemald's militarization and quest for global domination was Ascians all along. Of course it was. It manages to both be completely stupid and make perfect sense, all at once.

Oh! Mega:

Really liked the ending. Haters gonna hate, but I liked getting confirmation that the long-awaited Omega storyline was Chocobo Tales: The Raid all along, warm fuzzies included.

Seeing G'raha in-game again (albeit very indirectly) after almost four years as a complete non-entity feels, well, complicated. I'll leave it at that for now.

And that leads us to...

Allagans, though:

More Allagan ruins, more Allagan descendants (Sadu, in case you missed her copying from the Royal Allagan Spellbook), and yet another new discovery that makes a certain defanged solar power plant feel, well, completely harmless on the sliding scale.

Currently on the table we have:

• The Binding Coil: AKA Dalamud bits everywhere. Deactivated, destroyed, and sealed by the Scions.
• Syrcus Tower, sanitized and then (suddenly) sealed on (an interpretation of) Salina's orders that it might provide "hope" at some unspecified time in the future.
• Azys Lla, everyone's favorite research facility/gift shop, still just sort of there, even without the Triad. Active and airship-accessible. Even to Garleans.
• Omega. Apparently a more direct instigator of Allag's rise to technological dominance, in addition to killing/sealing Bahamut. And wrapping Shinryu up with a bow on top for Zenos to find.
• Heaven-on-High, a completely useless training ground that was important enough to die for. Also built on Salina (and/or Desh)'s orders, though it hasn't stopped a Calamity yet.
• Za Baan, which we didn't even know had anything to do with them until this patch, because sure, why not? Azys Lla came from here, not Meracydia.
• The House of the Crooked Coin, that other giant Allagan power source that basically nobody knew about until now, because sure, why not? Used to power the launch of both Azys Lla and Dalamud, and possibly the real cause of The Burn.

And the bonus round:

• Boulder Downs, an Allagan Ruin unearthed in the calamity that isn't a part of Dalamud, but hasn't really been brought up by anyone (besides Yoshida), in spite of being right there, with a (badly) sealed entrance and everything, since 2.0.

In a vacuum, free from meta concerns about "required" versus "side" content, something has to tie it all together.

And we still don't know what happened to Nero's modded scanner. It could have been what led him to Omega, which would have been a feeble but valid payoff for Unei's last moments, but it's very specifically discarded before Nero makes his way to Omega and reactivates it. It found something very close to the Tower, and it's just been sitting there beeping for ages. Actually, it's probably out of batteries by now.

No need to remind me that none of it means anything, and none of it is going anywhere. I mean, of course not. But come on.

Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I feel that there is a small nuance:

Solus says he created the empire to sow chaos, not be evil. And what better way to create chaos then to arm a desperate people with machina and instill in them a belief that might is right and the rest of the world are savages that need to be conquered? Once the war machine is up and running the Ascians would have to do little except making sure no one sues for peace.

Yet they go a step further anyway. They instill a belief that Eikons are a blight that need to be destroyed. Then the Ascians actively teach the beastribes how to summon said Eikons... essentially fanning the flames. The result is an ever growing conflict, and with that chaos. Ascian!Solus was probably kicking back with a beer and popcorn watching everything unfold (until Lahabrea got himself killed)

Hmm. I have to wonder then...

Exactly how much Thordan's double cross threw them off? They seemed somewhat alarmed by Nabriales getting axed, but watching Thordan turn him into fuel appears to have sent many of them, including Elidibus, into temporary Brown Alert. Their machinations, their plans, were manipulated - to literally transform a mortal into what would very shortly become a literal god had the WoL not immediately axed him. A being with righteous, religious conviction who could, given the power at his disposal and the ability to turn Ascians into fuel, destroy the Empire outright and potentially ruin forever any ability for Zodiark to manifest properly. This event may have caused Elidibus to move ahead with his Warrior of Darkness plans up a tad - they were already in the works - as well as send a subordinate to deal with the Warring Triad. It perhaps also may have caused him to decide that Nidhogg's aether needs to be removed from the equation entirely, or repurposed to his own ends, because it otherwise doesn't make much sense that he sent the Warriors of Darkness to retrieve Nidhogg's eyes. Remember, Midgardsormr and his brood, including Nidhogg, are not native to Hydaelyn.

On the mysterious voice:

Freakin' shot in the dark here, but has anyone here considered that the voice might be a disembodied Papalymo?

EDIT: By the way, I'm new. Hi.