This Needs to Be Said

[van_arn]

I think the problem is, is you got all the FFXI fans with Rose Colored Goggles.

They keep saying that we (the playerbase) want stuff like Diadem, Eureka, etc where you just park it and grind mobs for hours to pop something.

To me, Eureka and Diadem seemed like a rehash of Abyssea... and I never really got to partake of Abyssea when i twas current content, but upon going back in at I119 I can tell you that it seems like it was boring as crap. Maybe a notch better than other FFXI endgame, but here's the thing..... FFXIV is not FFXI, nor was it ever meant to be.

But, I suppose, the FFXI fans won't pipe down until we give them a little slice of Eorzea for them. I just wish they hadn't gated the nice fancy glowy weapons behind a mob that comes out once every several hours that needs a gigantic group to take down.

I'd rather they get so frustrated they quit entirely, rather than give them a slice of pie so they want more.

[Hestzhyen]

I think the problem is, is you got all the FFXI fans with Rose Colored Goggles.

They keep saying that we (the playerbase) want stuff like Diadem, Eureka, etc where you just park it and grind mobs for hours to pop something.

To me, Eureka and Diadem seemed like a rehash of Abyssea... and I never really got to partake of Abyssea when i twas current content, but upon going back in at I119 I can tell you that it seems like it was boring as crap. Maybe a notch better than other FFXI endgame, but here's the thing..... FFXIV is not FFXI, nor was it ever meant to be.

But, I suppose, the FFXI fans won't pipe down until we give them a little slice of Eorzea for them. I just wish they hadn't gated the nice fancy glowy weapons behind a mob that comes out once every several hours that needs a gigantic group to take down.

Someone rightly corrected me earlier when I mentioned the XI nostalgia blinding the folks that played the game- when most people were asking for more XI, they weren't asking for the leveling experience, just the actual fun at end-game and the natural socializing that occurred. But YoshiP and co. heard "we want to grind boar butts x10000 just like the good old days with some newfangled FATES on top" and made it happen.

I've resigned myself to not doing relic this expac. The only hope for Eureka at all once 5.0 hits is absolutely gutting the HP of everything in every instance so it is actually able to be soloed (which might actually get me in there, if I'm being honest). Else it will be just as dead as Diadem is now. But also looking at Diadem, I think they will just leave it to rot once the rush subsides and they hunker down to make Eureka 2: Electric Boogaloo for 5.0.

[Arkdra]

The problem is they plan content so far in advance (at least 1 year development time until we get to play it) any feedback that requires drastic changes is probably going to be ignored. I'm not making excuses for the dev team-- they need to figure out how to implement quality changes instead of minor fixes or improvements that do not really resolve core issues.

Well the thing about this is everyone hated diadem too and eureka is basically worse diadem. So they got their feedback on that and I have no idea how they concluded that some slight gameplay changes to that bland formula would be enough.

Although their main driving factor was likely wanting to do something different with the relic this time since just about everyone complained nonstop about it in ARR and HW. Oh to go back to those halcyon days though.

[Awful]

I have 0 interest to go into Pyros I never leveled in the original Eureka because it's just not my style of gameplay that I enjoy, sure there's people who enjoy it and power to them but I just don't see it i'm sorry to be quite honest with you the content in SB so far has been...questionable at best. What I mean by this is they knew most of the playerbase didn't enjoy Diadem so why bring it back?

I don't enjoy this whole grind mobs, then grind more mobs, grind light (which can be RNG) for hours, it doesn't compliment the way FFXIV is built, quite frankly this has been the most boring expansion out of ARR and HW I hope something changes down the road because this just isn't fun. I know that's quite the statement but it's the first time in awhile that I've actually been bored in this game and I love it at the same time it's like a rock and a hard place.

[Wyvernheart]

I hope you people haven't scared se from making a challenging open world for the next expansion. We could have even had a Bravery/Faith system one day. But now after all this crap has been said... You don't deserve it!

[TaleraRistain]

I hope you people haven't scared se from making a challenging open world for the next expansion. We could have even had a Bravery/Faith system one day. But now after all this crap has been said... You don't deserve it!

Absolutely zero about Eureka is challenging. The only skill it takes is to not fall asleep from boredom.

[Kirsten_Rev]

The problem is they plan content so far in advance (at least 1 year development time until we get to play it) any feedback that requires drastic changes is probably going to be ignored. I'm not making excuses for the dev team-- they need to figure out how to implement quality changes instead of minor fixes or improvements that do not really resolve core issues.

Frankly, I think they need to shift their approach to content planning. I've worked as a developer for some years now. I understand completely the point of planning and mapping out content or features in advance: it gives you the opportunity to get it just right, and it also buys enough time for the team to gain a sense of perspective, thereby in theory minimizing the time spent on features or content that ultimately don't improve the product.

Unfortunately, I've seen neither of these benefits manifest themselves in XIV. Consider, for instance, the routine examples of content demanding capabilities beyond what XIV's engine and servers can support: Housing, Glamours, solo Duties early in MSQ cycles, large-scale fights having visibility problems for enemy attacks and party members. There's a litany of examples of woefully rough-around-the edges content: Eureka lacking an Elemental Level sync feature, initial job balance for the Heavensward jobs, the Role-based ability system launched with Stormblood, the change to force MSQ cutscenes, Chocobo racing and the badly sluggish controls. And, of course, there's also a significant amount of content introduced that people don't even like or take advantage of: Lord of Verminion, Diadem 1.0 and 2.0, Eureka (especially Pagos).

In theory, planning so far in advance is supposed to minimize these sorts of issues. It's the upside that makes up for the fact that advance planning tends to make development somewhat less flexible. If SE isn't able to deliver on consistently high-quality, well-planned, well-implemented content - and thus far they've failed spectacularly to do so - then the planning cycles need to be shortened so that they can at least respond more quickly to mistakes.

I think the problem is, is you got all the FFXI fans with Rose Colored Goggles.

They keep saying that we (the playerbase) want stuff like Diadem, Eureka, etc where you just park it and grind mobs for hours to pop something.

To me, Eureka and Diadem seemed like a rehash of Abyssea... and I never really got to partake of Abyssea when i twas current content, but upon going back in at I119 I can tell you that it seems like it was boring as crap. Maybe a notch better than other FFXI endgame, but here's the thing..... FFXIV is not FFXI, nor was it ever meant to be.

Speaking as an FFXI fan and long-time player, I think this is a somewhat blanket generalization, and I personally find it to be both rude and ignorant.

There's nothing rose-colored about my FFXI glasses. I still enjoy the game to this day, and in many ways consider Abyssea a superior piece of content to most anything we've gotten since ARR released. I'm sure there are others in the same boat. I also can't recall anyone speaking of a desire for hours-on-end monster grinding. Dangerous open-world content? Yes. Horizontal gearing? Yes. Depth of experience? Yes. A re-creation of the worst parts of the 1-75 grind? Notsomuch.

And, on these measures, Eureka is an abject failure, as is Diadem. Neither has done anything to address the bland gearing options within XIV; Eureka is taking steps that could lead there one day, but unless the unique sub-stats are one day usable outside Eureka, they're meaningless. Neither has provided the depth of experience of Abyssea. Consider what Abyssea featured: multiple complementary base systems (Lights balanced across treasure chest types that were all farmed in certain ways; Atma acquisition and progression; the Proc system for NMs), supporting multiple types of content (Magian weapon grinds; Empyrean weapon farming; AF3 accessories; upgradeable AF3 body pieces). That is more depth than any piece of combat-oriented content in FFXIV, and it's not even close. Eureka and Diadem didn't even seem to make efforts in this regard. Even the dangerous open-world content wasn't handled as well as it could have been: monsters don't truly follow you forever in Eureka, there's no Sneak / Invis equivalent to give players a way around them, and the monsters are so dense that one can't really explore at all safely, regardless of skill and knowledge.

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I'd also like to point out that these aspects of FFXI that are typically requested - difficult open-world content that demands player attentiveness and skill, horizontal gearing options, content with multiple overlapping systems that support and build on each other - are features that are very much applicable to FFXIV. The statement 'FFXIV is not FFXI, nor was it ever meant to be' doesn't mean that XIV can't absorb aspects of FFXI that made it successful, while nonetheless translating them into something that fits within Eorzea rather than Vana'diel.

I'd argue that SE actually had the opportunity to do this with Eureka, and they just whiffed. Imagine if Relics and gear had progressed not purely through grinding FATEs and Pazuzu, but had also featured force-spawn NMs tailored to be challenging to, say, groups of six? They could have grabbed the existing Map system (which would force people to venture into dangerous territory), building in multiple tiers of spawn items (a base level tier that people can solo; a second tier level with a 100% drop rate that requires 3-4 or so to farm; a final set of bosses that drops the upgrade items and requires 6+ people). They could have eliminated the cross-server play for Eureka, enhancing the social aspects that people built for themselves anyway in Anemos, and planting the seeds for tomorrow's static parties. They could have layered Crafting and Gathering more completely into the maps, with Gathering actually requiring the use of stealth tools, and Crafting being involved in some aspect of the Relic grind. They could have introduced Daily quests that added to the lore of Eureka, while giving people something to do if their friends weren't on (it's not like they didn't have enough otherwise-useless NPCs in the towns or anything). They could have done something more interesting with the Elemental Wheel, something to bring about a feeling more similar to what Atma had, where different jobs benefited from different Atma, and the impact was hugely noticeable.

And, of course, they could have made an attempt to introduce meaningful customization into gear, with an initial phase featuring significant customization that applied only within Eureka, so that they'd have had time to evaluate its impact and aim to introduce it into the game world.

You know what's interesting to note about all of this? None of these are FFXI systems: they're all FFXIV systems. Maps, the existing Elemental Wheel, daily quests, Gathering stealth abilities, Crafters, server-restricted entry (later Deep Dungeon levels). This is FFXIV learning from what made FFXI successful, weaving together its more modern game systems to create a result that takes the best of both Vana'diel and Eorzea: deep content, without the harsh learning curve or full-time commitment.

That's what I ask for when I ask for more content along the lines of FFXI. Having followed many posts along those topics, I have the distinct impression most people are voicing similar sentiments. We're not as ignorant as your post has made us out to be, and we're well aware that XIV is a different title. But that doesn't mean it can't learn from its predecessor.

[KaivaC]

I hope you people haven't scared se from making a challenging open world for the next expansion. We could have even had a Bravery/Faith system one day. But now after all this crap has been said... You don't deserve it!

I have two counter-arguments to make to this.

1) Eureka isn't so much as challenging as it is grindy and is intended to draw out as much of your time as possible, hence the HP pools and the high spike damage that every mob does. It's just a long, tedious grind.

2) If the developers seriously take the complaints about Eureka and uses that as justification for not including challenging open world content, then the devs have terrible tunnel vision and are adding evidence to the sentiment that they are tone-deaf to their playerbase unless it fits their exact vision down to the tee. Again, I can't stress this enough, maybe if the devs actually opened themselves up to actually hearing real feedback and took our very legitimate concerns into real consideration, maybe they would understand why players don't like this type of content. It's impossible for a developer to take in every single complaint, for sure. But surely they could actually consider more than just their JP base when it comes to getting at least some kind of feedback about things.

[Solarra]

IBut surely they could actually consider more than just their JP base when it comes to getting at least some kind of feedback about things.

I agree with everything you said.
However, regarding this last point, the Japanese playerbase was not at all positive about Anemos, judging from some of the translated forum posts.
I wonder how they are reacting to Pagos. Does anyone know?

[Dzian]

I think the problem is, is you got all the FFXI fans with Rose Colored Goggles.

They keep saying that we (the playerbase) want stuff like Diadem, Eureka, etc where you just park it and grind mobs for hours to pop something.
.

While players did say the wanted structured endgame activities such as ffxiv had.

No one at any point ever said they wanted eureka to be lol valkurm dunes exp grind or anything remotely close to diadem.

Players said time and time again they hate fates and absolutely hated diadem and yet the devs still insist on telling players this eureka stuff is what they want and asked for.

Show me a post anywhere from ffxi fans that says hey you know what was really great about xi. Valkurm dunes grinds can we have some of that in endgame... it doesn't exist.

And many of xis player base don't include abbysea or anything higher than level 75 as over half them quit because they upped the level cap 24 levels in 12 months. Totally destroying the game