Level Syncing isn't the best solution

[Lunavi]

The word "Perfect" has never been accurately used to describe any feature in an MMO because they grow and evolve all of the time.

With testing and patience, it could be made to be very close, but if you think that the current system is "Perfect" the way it is, you're very mistaken. Even now, with level syncing and item level reduction, people slaughter old dungeons. A brand new level 58 with quest or vendor given gear (you know- the normal gear that's available to a brand new level 58) vs a level synced 58 with reduced level 70 raid gear is going to notice a huge difference. The level synced guy is going to absolutely dominate the DPS chart. The system now is far from "Perfect".

I don't understand why it would be better to the game to keep this current system when it's clearly not perfect. I mean, if your concern is that the system I proposed would have to be perfect, aren't you concerned about the current system that's in place? Because the level syncing isn't perfect either. It's unbalanced and badly. Doesn't that bother you?

I do not think you get the problem here, I said not perfect as a understatement, it would be disastrous if ANY of those two scenarios occur. The system you are talking about is going to either cause an even greater rift, or make it so that no one is going to want to run level synched content ever. Of course people in decent gear are going to dominate people in their whities, as anything else would be weird considering that otherwise people would have to have sets for each dungeon to perform well in them. Think of it as that people running level synched run with the same level as the best gear they can have at that point, which is not exactly vendor whities. That is an "unfairness" people can buy and respect, but if people start roflstomping level 22 dungeons with flare and foul spamming, that is going to leave an extremely sour aftertaste for new players, and it is going to cause a huge problem if tanks starts tanking as if they expect the BLM in the party to have foul and flare.

Likewhise, if people are going to be forced to use those abilities to do decent in dungeons or even still not do that much damage, then that too is a problem. Then on the topic that dungeons are still being dominated by players, that does not have with gear primarily to do, it has to do with the fact that most leveling dungeons are, and always were, extremely easy (save for Sunken Temple of Qarn in 2.0, which was regrettably nerfed the very next patch). You want to replace a functioning system with a broken one (well, at least one that has not been added in a non-broken way before).

[JunseiKei]

The current system isn't perfect, but it's in my opinion, the best implementation I've encountered.

The main concerns that pop to mind are:
- Higher level + item leveled players versus the on- level + possible lower item leveled causing disparity and making runs frustrating.
- Preventing power creep if SE reworked the past-dungeon system and gave us all of our skills.
- The new constant need to make sure the disparity between older and newer players is balanced (which means constant maintenance of older content, taking focus away from future in some form).

The current system of syncing down players means that what the content is balanced around is not so easily broken. Though power creep still exists in past dungeons (syncing you down brings you down to certain stats, but it's easy to tell who has a higher lvl/ilvl during a run, leaving them at capped stats that aren't normally achieved at the level/ilevel the content was made available for), it could be much, much worse. If this is put in solely to "work on your rotation," you have striking dummies for this to work it into your muscle memory. If it's to make sure you have the DPS for a fight with your current rotation, you have the Stone, Sky and Sea for that. If you're looking to optimize in a fight, there's literally nothing better than to do the fight and pay attention to where you have moments where you have to line your utility buffs with the rest of your party, move away/stop casting/turn away and making those gaps as small as possible.

[Nabril]

The current system isn't perfect, but it's in my opinion, the best implementation I've encountered.

The main concerns that pop to mind are:
- Higher level + item leveled players versus the on- level + possible lower item leveled causing disparity and making runs frustrating.
- Preventing power creep if SE reworked the past-dungeon system and gave us all of our skills.
- The new constant need to make sure the disparity between older and newer players is balanced (which means constant maintenance of older content, taking focus away from future in some form).

The system I proposed wouldn't break anything that's not already broken by the current system. As for power creep- a little testing goes a LOOONG way. That's why games like this have testers. So properly utilized, the testers would ensure that this doesn't happen. It's what testers are for and a company this big knows this.

The current system of syncing down players means that what the content is balanced around is not so easily broken. Though power creep still exists in past dungeons (syncing you down brings you down to certain stats, but it's easy to tell who has a higher lvl/ilvl during a run, leaving them at capped stats that aren't normally achieved at the level/ilevel the content was made available for), it could be much, much worse. If this is put in solely to "work on your rotation," you have striking dummies for this to work it into your muscle memory. If it's to make sure you have the DPS for a fight with your current rotation, you have the Stone, Sky and Sea for that. If you're looking to optimize in a fight, there's literally nothing better than to do the fight and pay attention to where you have moments where you have to line your utility buffs with the rest of your party, move away/stop casting/turn away and making those gaps as small as possible.

You don't play much content do you? Combat dummies are garbage and everyone who raids should already know this. There's a HUGE difference between a caster standing in one spot on a combat dummy vs. running around and doing mechanics in a real fight. Yeah, combat dummies serve a purpose and that's to let you practice the ideal rotation in a perfect world, but once you get into a fight, you have to practice THAT fight so that you can alter your rotation around the mechanics FOR THAT BOSS.

Anyone who says otherwise is just someone who doesn't know how to play this game or is simply making up arguments to keep changes from happening. Which one are you?

[Paladinleeds]

Anyone who says otherwise is just someone who doesn't know how to play this game or is simply making up arguments to keep changes from happening. Which one are you?

Actually, it's written into the lore that we revisit our memories when we revisit those dungeons. Now, it's not perfect as we obviously can power creep (but maybe we can attest that to Minstrel-style embellishment).
The power creep issue can be mitigated with two things:
1) Tighter ilvl and/or lvl tuning. Not only is that an easier fix, but I feel it's more appropriate. Plus, it also means that at most, the players will see one or two abilities into the future of what they're gonna get for their class, so it therefore also prevents overwhelming the newer player.
2) Role skill adjustments. Ok, the fact we get all 5 of our role skills when synced down does cause some potential issues. Ideally, we should only get access to role skills (and role skill numbers) at that level.

To me, not only do those 2 fixes solve the overgearing aspect better, but they're also much easier to do as they work within the systems we have already (if I remember rightly, the old cross-class system did limit how many role skills you could use when you level synced). This idea not only makes things more complicated, but I feel it provides no benefit, and a lot of pitfalls, as people have already highlights. And for practicing the mechanics of a fight, aren't you best off doing it in that particular fight?

[kikix12]

The system I proposed wouldn't break anything that's not already broken by the current system. As for power creep- a little testing goes a LOOONG way. That's why games like this have testers. So properly utilized, the testers would ensure that this doesn't happen. It's what testers are for and a company this big knows this.

If a fork have five teeth when it's in new, it's perfect.
If two teeth of a fork break, it's broken...but still usable.
If two more break...it's impossible to use for some foods, but still have its use.
Break the last tooth and you end up with useless crap that can't even work as a lever because forks are made from too soft of a material.

See that?! There are multiple stages of "breaking" stuff. Current system is not "perfect" mechanically, because it doesn't let you get that feel that there was a point to you growing stronger. And if you unsync it you cannot get any drops (experience is not relevant here) except from bosses. However, it's still usable and works while minimizing the negatives.

Your system would completely break it. The difference between high level and low level players would be massive. And that's unavoidable. Even if you balance the damage output of high levels to compare to low levels...what point do you compare?! I mean, at lvl18 playing a bard is laughably easy. At lvl70 playing a bard is a very demanding task. That means that a lvl18 player (Sastasha lvl cap) will use their available skills to the utmost, meaning that even if they are average players they will bring damage near the classes maximum output. But a player that's lvl70 synced to 18 in your way?! Not really. Most will be below or around the middle of the potential. That means that at lvl70, you are WORSE than at lvl18.

Go down with the balance to the other end of the spectrum, and nearly every lvl70 WILL be better. And that invalidates the whole process of balancing.

Go down the middle and...some players will be far weaker and some far stronger. Not to mention, the other players will be unable to get a good role model. They will find themselves copying poor gameplay or thinking that a good player is bad because relatively he's at 80% not 95%, unlike the lvl18. So the lvl18 when getting to level 70 will avoid that rotation...and is more likely to end up way lower than at 80%, rather than higher.


What I agree with is that early levels are a pain because most classes lack core FUNCTIONS to themselves. Like AoE, being the biggest culprit. Even if one, every class should have access to AoE from the very first dungeon. Every class should have access to one ranged attack from very first dungeon. And every class should have access to their core mechanics at lvl15. Stormblood made low level content significantly more of a pain because they actually took away from early levels to have what to give at the new ones. That's a design flaw that they absolutely SHOULD fix. And only that.

[mosaicex]

The problem is not the idea itself, but rather its actual implementation.

Suppose you get a DRG in Satasha, a level 15 dungeon.
At level 15, a DRG(or rather, a Lancer) does not have any AoE skill.
Now if the DRG is level 50 he will have more tools to increase his dps, such as Blood for Blood, Doom Spike, and Dragonfire Dive.
He will have even more at level 60 and 70 (Geirskogul, Sonic Thrust, Nastrond etc.)
How do you propose the devs balance these skill? Do you simply just reduce their potency so that the total output remains the same as that of level 15 player (which is simply impossible by the way as they don't even have AoE skill) making higher leveled player perform more for less?
Do you leave thing as is? Giving the actual level 15 tank much harder time to deal with aggro, possibly turning more people away from tanking? Hell it might even cause higher leveled players to despise lower leveled players even more for not having all these sick skills, making the run longer, on the other hand.

You said the current system is unbalanced, but what you suggested takes it to the other level.

I'm saying as someone who doesn't really enjoy level syncing much (mostly for just sub level 50 contents), but it is what it is.
So you either deal with it, or suggest an actual realistic solution.

The only MMO I've played that does it is WoW, and it works badly there. They mess with the content tuning so it either remains trivial for max level players being scaled down with full toolkits or ends up too difficult for players who are at the intended level but only have partial toolkits. I'd not enjoy seeing it repeated here. If the content is designed around players having access to only certain abilities then it should be experienced that way when synced.

I'll have to second this statement. The dungeons in WoW, while fantastic and completely stomped on XIV's one, have problem due to its level sync system. New players might as well not bother and just watch the veterans mow down everything in their path. It's part of the reason I did not bother continue playing.

[JunseiKei]

The system I proposed wouldn't break anything that's not already broken by the current system. As for power creep- a little testing goes a LOOONG way. That's why games like this have testers. So properly utilized, the testers would ensure that this doesn't happen. It's what testers are for and a company this big knows this.



You don't play much content do you? Combat dummies are garbage and everyone who raids should already know this. There's a HUGE difference between a caster standing in one spot on a combat dummy vs. running around and doing mechanics in a real fight. Yeah, combat dummies serve a purpose and that's to let you practice the ideal rotation in a perfect world, but once you get into a fight, you have to practice THAT fight so that you can alter your rotation around the mechanics FOR THAT BOSS.

Anyone who says otherwise is just someone who doesn't know how to play this game or is simply making up arguments to keep changes from happening. Which one are you?

I do everything outside of ultimate, and that's simply because my raid group just doesn't want to (and I don't particularly want to do that with complete strangers :\). You're strawmanning my statement. I even said nothing is better than the actual fight for optimization, so I don't know why you are saying that back to me. These "anyone who disagrees with me are this" statements are just plain annoying and sound more like a kid saying "I'm right, so there!" but it'd help if you took in my whole statement before you tried to come after me.

What exactly would testers be doing? Companies use player-testers to make sure content that is created works. In this case, giving level 70 players full access to their skills as early as the level 10 guildhests. You queue up, you use a level 70 skill. It works - huzzah! What you don't get out of these tests : the impact of having higher level players being compared against the actual low level characters and how boring it becomes for that new player. SE has also stated how they do in-house testing in past LLPs, so it's not like zero testing is being done.

The idea needs to address issues like this, but so far has failed to do so:

The problem is not the idea itself, but rather its actual implementation.

Suppose you get a DRG in Satasha, a level 15 dungeon.
At level 15, a DRG(or rather, a Lancer) does not have any AoE skill.
Now if the DRG is level 50 he will have more tools to increase his dps, such as Blood for Blood, Doom Spike, and Dragonfire Dive.
He will have even more at level 60 and 70 (Geirskogul, Sonic Thrust, Nastrond etc.)
How do you propose the devs balance these skill? Do you simply just reduce their potency so that the total output remains the same as that of level 15 player (which is simply impossible by the way as they don't even have AoE skill) making higher leveled player perform more for less?
Do you leave thing as is? Giving the actual level 15 tank much harder time to deal with aggro, possibly turning more people away from tanking? Hell it might even cause higher leveled players to despise lower leveled players even more for not having all these sick skills, making the run longer, on the other hand.

You said the current system is unbalanced, but what you suggested takes it to the other level.

I'm saying as someone who doesn't really enjoy level syncing much (mostly for just sub level 50 contents), but it is what it is.
So you either deal with it, or suggest an actual realistic solution.

The only MMO I've played that does it is WoW, and it works badly there. They mess with the content tuning so it either remains trivial for max level players being scaled down with full toolkits or ends up too difficult for players who are at the intended level but only have partial toolkits. I'd not enjoy seeing it repeated here. If the content is designed around players having access to only certain abilities then it should be experienced that way when synced.

I'll have to second this statement. The dungeons in WoW, while fantastic and completely stomped on XIV's one, have problem due to its level sync system. New players might as well not bother and just watch the veterans mow down everything in their path. It's part of the reason I did not bother continue playing.

How do you effectively make someone with a full AoE toolkit deal damage on par with a player that hasn't leveled high enough to get any AoE abilties at all, especially considering the way things get chain pulled? Drop the potency on the AoEs from the typical 100 or so down to 10 so if it hits 10 mobs then it deals roughly the same damage as a low level player will deal using their standard single target attack?

Do you cap potency on all single target abilities at 150 or perhaps even down to 100 depending on what item level sync is being used? At what content level do you start increasing the potencies to bring them more in line with the demand of those higher but still not max level dungeons?

I'm sure SE would love to see the players behind this change presenting their theorycrafting analysis showing how this can work successfully on a job by job and dungeon by dungeon basis.

Probably needs to be said, since my other statement wasn't full comprehended, I'm not even against the idea. However, it has issues that need addressing before it should even be considered. Not to mention yet other important issues others have pointed out.

[OurMom]

They just dont know how to design challenge content. I've always hated level/ilevel sync it makes absolutely no sense, especially in stuff like maps and current end game dungeons.

Why work towards progression just to keep taking it away?

the marginally bigger total player count than any other FINAL FANTASY MMO at the same point of its lifecycle.

Aren't there only two ff mmos? I could be horribly wrong I don't keep up with the franchise. I thought it was just 11 and 14? That's not like it's some massive accomplishment if there's only two and one was created like over 10 years ago.

[Spiroth]

They just dont know how to design challenge content. I've always hated level/ilevel sync it makes absolutely no sense, especially in stuff like maps and current end game dungeons.

Why work towards progression just to keep taking it away?



Aren't there only two ff mmos? I could be horribly wrong I don't keep up with the franchise. I thought it was just 11 and 14? That's not like it's some massive accomplishment if there's only two and one was created like over 10 years ago.

Why do you make this point? I was replying to what I quoted.
Also, there are 3 FINAL FANTASY MMOs.

[HyoMinPark]

Balancing a system like this would be a nightmare - how would you propose balancing a level 70 rotation in Sastasha against a tank that's a level 15 GLA or MRD with a fraction of the skills you have? Mind you, neither have full combos until level 26 and level 30 respectfully, and neither have a tank stance either. It can already be difficult enough being item level synced against a new tank in lower level dungeons with at-level gear; I got Qarn earlier on my alt's AST (full i130 Augmented Poetics) and was pulling from a baby WAR in a mixture of i30 and i35 gear with just Malefics.

Even if you nerfed the damage of the level 70 player by 90%, at that point, why bother? I'd rather have my skeletal level 15 toolkit scaled to Sastasha's level than my full 70 kit scaled down that low. It would just feel bad at that point.

I don't think this is something the game needs currently. If you want to practice a level 70 rotation, there is plenty of level 70 content you can queue directly in to and practice, from dungeons to raids.

Why do you make this point? I was replying to what I quoted.
Also, there are 3 FINAL FANTASY MMOs.

Uhm, last I checked, there were only 2: Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV. Unless you're counting 1.0 and ARR separately, I'm unaware of a third FF MMO currently on the market.