Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

[Maeka]

Coming from someone who plays WoW....

The first thing any WoW player is going to complain about FFXIV is "OMG 2.5s GCD! TOO SLOW!!!!!!"

But yet they are failing to realize that each class has several short-cooldown abilities that are oGCD once you get past Level 30 that, the 2.5s GCD oftentimes doesn't mean much when you are weaving in other abilties.

For example, my Lv35-ish MCH..... a rotation will look like this:

1). Hot Shot. (GCD)
2). Reload. (oGCD, 30 second cooldown)
3). Normal Shot (I forget the name of this ability, the first attack you get) (GCD)
4). Slug Shot. (GCD)
5). Re-assemble (oGCD, 30? second cooldown)
6). Clean Shot. (GCD)
7). Rapid Fire (oGCD, 30? second CD)
8). Normal Shot (GCD) until an Enhanced Slug Shot procs.
9). Rapid Reload (oGCD, 15s CD)
10). Slug Shot.
11). Clean Shot.

Now, you'll note that in steps 1 through 8 there is only one instance where you are not weaving an oGCD between GCDs. So...

Step 1-3, 2.5s, three button presses.
Step 3-5, 5.0s, two button presses.
Step 5-6, 2.5s, two button presses.
Step 6-8, 2.5s, two button presses.

So you're pressing 9 buttons in 12.5 seconds.

Now, true, at the end of Step 8, both Re-assemble and Rapid Fire are on cooldown, but now you got Reload that's coming up, and also Rapid Reload isn't far behind.

And then you have Heartbreak which is an oGCD execute which could happen at any point during that.

EDIT: Obviously I'm a newbie MCH, I forgot to mention a Rapid Reload early in that sequence because you want the cooldown to be up by the time you get to your "Trying to proc E-Slug Shot" phase so you can RR to guarantee a Cleaner Shot proc.

EDIT2: Yes, WoW's GCD is faster... but yet the actual rotations are far more boring than the ones in FFXI.

I showed you FFXI MCH, ~Lv35.

Let me show you Outlaw Rogue, 120:

1). Sinister Strike 1-3x depending on how many Doubles you get, each one has like....20% IIRC? chance of swinging twice. Basically you want 5 Combo Points, each SS gives you 1.
2). Roll the Bones at 5CP.
3). Marked for Death (if you chose that talent)
4). Run Through.
5). Sinister Strike 1-3x (yup, we're doing THIS again)
6). Run Through at 5CP.
7). Sinister Strike 1-3x (....yup... that's basically what this class is)

The only difference is Pistol Shot procs which happen randomly when you SS, so you can swap a SS for Pistol Shot if you need 2 CP or more.

Your only oGCDs are Marked for Death, and Adrenaline Rush along with a defensive or two.

But that's..... all there is to it, really.

Now, 120 Ret Paladin:

1). Judgment.
2). Blade of Justice.
3). Templar's Verdict.
4). Crusader Strike.
5). Crusader Strike.
6). Hopefully you either got a Crusader Strike proc that lets you TV at 2HoPo, or you got Art of War which reset your Blade of Justice

And..... that's it.

Build 3 HoPo, use TV or Divine Storm.

Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. That's literally all you do.

Don't believe me?

https://youtu.be/yS9ewZPJR1A?t=12m27s

Okay, I forgot about Wake of Ashes.... but still. That's once every 45-ish seconds.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that with Outlaw Rogue, after the first few attacks, you're Energy Starved.... yeah you got a 1-1.5s GCD, but that doesn't mean anything when you don't have enough Energy to execute your attacks. You end up waiting ~2 seconds between attacks anyways, so the faster GCD is actually pointless.

[Darrcyphfeid]

Like I said, it's going to happen. There is no "if," it's just "when." But in a thread asking whether or not combat is boring... well. Y'know.

I mean technically they could make it an opt-in sort of thing, but given how they approached the Job Gauges I find that incredibly unlikely.

[MomomiMomi]

Like I said, it's going to happen. There is no "if," it's just "when." But in a thread asking whether or not combat is boring... well. Y'know.

I mean technically they could make it an opt-in sort of thing, but given how they approached the Job Gauges I find that incredibly unlikely.

It's actually more like 111, 222, 333, with oGCDs throw in between and whatever other abilities you have. The current system we have now doesn't require any more thought into it than the pvp combos do, they just require more buttons. Before you've pressed your 1, 2, or 3, you already predetermined what your second and third button presses are going to be.

[Maeka]

It's actually more like 111, 222, 333, with oGCDs throw in between and whatever other abilities you have. The current system we have now doesn't require any more thought into it than the pvp combos do, they just require more buttons. Before you've pressed your 1, 2, or 3, you already predetermined what your second and third button presses are going to be.

I don't know if I would go that far, I mean it really depends on the class/job in XIV and there are things like random procs in some of them, such as Firestarter and Thundercloud. And the rotations tend to be complex enough that you have to actually keep track of where you were (or use the job gauge), unless you get so ridiculously good that you don't even have to think about it... but most average people aren't like That though.

[MomomiMomi]

I don't know if I would go that far, I mean it really depends on the class/job in XIV and there are things like random procs in some of them, such as Firestarter and Thundercloud. And the rotations tend to be complex enough that you have to actually keep track of where you were (or use the job gauge), unless you get so ridiculously good that you don't even have to think about it... but most average people aren't like That though.

I was specifically talking about combos. Things like Riposte > Zwerchhau > Redoublement. Hakaze > Jinpu > Gekko. etc.. You've already determined what you're going to do (Redoublement, Gekko, Kasha, etc.) before you've even pressed the first button of the combo. So simplifying the combo into that first button is just a QoL change that would make us press less buttons but achieve the same outcome, and even the same process, minus the button bloat.

[Maeka]

I was specifically talking about combos. Things like Riposte > Zwerchhau > Redoublement. Hakaze > Jinpu > Gekko. etc.. You've already determined what you're going to do (Redoublement, Gekko, Kasha, etc.) before you've even pressed the first button of the combo. So simplifying the combo into that first button is just a QoL change that would make us press less buttons but achieve the same outcome, and even the same process, minus the button bloat.

Except for classes that have oGCD abilities that modify your DPS and/or abilities that don't impact your Combos.

For example, Re-Assemble for MCH. I don't want a Normal->Slug->Clean shot combo button because there are times I want might to Re-assemble in the middle of that, or reload.

Or, for Ninja, I might do the following:

1-> 2 (sees Ninki get 70, do Bhackrava or Hellfrog since that does not disrupt combos) -> 3

Or PLD...

Throw Shield, Fast Blade, Flash, Savage Blade, Flash, Rage of Halone. Same with DRK and Unleash. Or what about Provoke? Fast Blade, oh crap an add came in and is chewing on the healer, Provoke+Flash! .. Savage Blade, Rage of Halone. I'd hate to have to wait nearly 5 seconds for the combo routine to finish before dumping that provoke on that new add that just came.

There are times you want to use oGCDs and non-Combo disruptive abilities in-between combo abilities.

OR, what about Target Switching?

Sometimes as a PLD, I like to split Savage Blade and Rage of Halone up on separate targets. Or, in AoE situations on my Ninja I might be in the middle of my combo and see that another target is low enough to Assassinate, so switch target, Assassinate, switch back to mine to continue the combo.

etc etc etc.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It's actually more like 111, 222, 333, with oGCDs throw in between and whatever other abilities you have. The current system we have now doesn't require any more thought into it than the pvp combos do, they just require more buttons. Before you've pressed your 1, 2, or 3, you already predetermined what your second and third button presses are going to be.

And yet a primary complaint amongst healers is their DPS rotation consists of spamming 1 endlessly. A good number want the old HW skills back just so they have more buttons to push. Reducing our combos to a single button negates the feeling of a combo entirely. You're just spamming the same key, which gets repetitive. It may not seem like much but it's a big reason fighting games have you enter different button sequences. It's a physiological thing. For a lot of people simply moving their fingers from 1234 gives the illusion of a more engaging system. This is why so many people despise Stormblood PvP right now. And it's failure is why I don't see them porting over the combo consolidation.

[MomomiMomi]

And yet a primary complaint amongst healers is their DPS rotation consists of spamming 1 endlessly. A good number want the old HW skills back just so they have more buttons to push. Reducing our combos to a single button negates the feeling of a combo entirely. You're just spamming the same key, which gets repetitive. It may not seem like much but it's a big reason fighting games have you enter different button sequences. It's a physiological thing. For a lot of people simply moving their fingers from 1234 gives the illusion of a more engaging system. This is why so many people despise Stormblood PvP right now. And it's failure is why I don't see them porting over the combo consolidation.

Then make it optional. You can keep your button bloat if you want, and others can get rid of it.

...

None of the things you mentioned would be affected by the combo consolidation. You can still do all of that.

Yea, but not all jobs have button bloat and reducing some of the skills down is going to murder some other jobs like MNK and it's finishers due to positionals. There's not going to be a perfect system without other problems coming out.

Mind explaining how it would affect MNK positionals? I don't see how it would. It would play exactly how it does now, except you'd press one button three times instead of three different buttons.

[Sigma-Astra]

Mind explaining how it would affect MNK positionals? I don't see how it would. It would play exactly how it does now, except you'd press one button three times instead of three different buttons.

Because there are multiple sets requiring certain positionals and they would have to adjust the potency for certain things like Demolish. You have Bootshine, True Strike, and Demolish that all have to be done in the back of the target, meanwhile, you have other things like Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, and Snap Punch on the side. This presents two problems actually because you don't learn Dragon Kick until lvl 50, so that side combo already has a problem.

And theoretically, any MNK would refresh Demolish every 3 combos, but if you're condensing the Monk abilities to just basically turn into 1-1-1, then you'd have adjust Demolish to refresh every 2 combos unless the combos work in a way where you can go 1-1-2 or 2-2-1

It can be done, if done correctly, but it is NOT as simple as you think by just them turning everything into 1-1-1 and then it all works perfectly. As the combos are now, we would have to completely re-tune when certain abilities are used and learned. It would require a full redesign of MNK and possibly any job with positionals.

Dragoon might not have as much of a difficulty, and possibly ninja might be in the same boat....but, monk wouldn't be that easy or not in a very good spot if it was done incorrectly.

And honestly? I don't trust them doing it correctly. And really, they should fix skills like One Ilm Punch before deciding to make everything 1-1-1.

[Kirsten_Rev]

Then make it optional. You can keep your button bloat if you want, and others can get rid of it.

I find it surprising that most people seem to think XIV's combat style is too slow / too boring, and yet here we are, seeing arguments in favour of dumbing it down more.

Shifting combos to work via multiple presses of a single button would be a mistake. The fundamental issue I have with the idea is that it would reduce my sense of control over my character. There should be nothing 'artificially predicted' about my actions, which condensing combos to a 111 sort of format (as opposed to a 123) would inevitably do. And, making this optional wouldn't be a reasonable path forward, because it would be easier for a player to achieve optimal performance under this redesign, since a 111 system would never be prone to fingers twitching or a player not executing actions in the proper order. There'd be inevitable pressure to use this mode of 'play'.

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Look, I've got issues with FFXIV's approach to creating challenge. It's entirely too reliant on the memorization of fight mechanics, and doesn't involve nearly enough dynamic decision-making. But I really don't think hacking away at the dexterity required to play the game in the name of condensed control schemes is the right approach. There is such a thing as too much streamlining, and anything that removes my sense of control over my character in combat falls into that category, so far as I'm concerned.