Shinryu Normal...

[Chiami]

It has been said in the past already (including by me), and I know the White Knights will charge for the attack again in response to this post which I write after another wipe fest in Shinyru NM, with eventually our healers leaving in frustration...

... but please SE, consider nerfing Shinyru normal. It is ridiculous that even a year after this, with people having way higher ilvl I see wipes in there as THE NORMAL STATE OF THINGS.

Most casuals can't do this content unless they echo their way up or get carried -- no matter how much you claim "players have gotten so much better." No, they haven't. The raiders maybe have, but that's 5-10% or such? Meanwhile most casual players do not have the TIME to hone their skills to higher levels, that is just common sense. That's those 3/4 or more who pay for most of the other content with their subs but never touch anything beyond normal dungeons and even struggle with those at times (and that is fine, not everyone needs or even WANTS harder challenges).

Shinyru in it's current state, more often than not, turns into an exercise of "Fail your way to success", if people don't simply leave and you have to try several parties until you get a clear.

And before you start your ad hominems, dear White Knights, I have cleared this content, and even harder content easily and many times over despite my latency of 200+ and lag spikes turning everything automatically into Savage mode, and despite that even helped carry folks who were struggling to their clear... unless I am cursed with TOO many people in a party who simply can't handle the mechanics, which is WAY too often in Shinryu NM. Needing several wipes to clear content that should be just "simple MSQ" is not what I call good game design.

I know quite a few level 70 players who made it a habit to queue for Trial roulette only after removing enough gear to guarantee they won't get Shinryu (and putting it on after entering the queue), because they don't want to deal with that kind of wipe fest and abandons, making it EVEN harder for newbies to get their clear via DF. Is that what you call "works as intended"?

We know by now the devs put mechanics in there which were meant for Ex, and it shows. Most casuals can't handle Ex, so please SE... turn the wipe fest into something casuals can handle instead of failing their way to success or getting carried.

Leave Ex mechanics in Ex mode, for those who can handle it and want the challenge, don't force it onto the entire player base.

[Lorgana]

I don't think you can just label anyone who disagrees with you as "White Knights" ( though I do main pally hmm...) but just gonna say I disagree with your entire post. Honestly Shinryu NM is the last boss of SB and I was quite happy when I saw that he presented somewhat more of a challenge than the previous encounters. Whilst it's a little harsh and maybe blunt but quite frankly this is just a case of get good, literally. If you have gotten to level 70 in your class and you haven't figured out mechanics that Shinryu uses from all the other boss fights in the game, either you bought a jump potion or you need to improve as a player.

Not all fights that are challenging need nerfed, sometimes the issue is with the players and that's what I believe is the case here

[MoroMurasaki]

I've had 2 disbands of Shinryu ever and I only started raiding in the end of 4.2.

If you have a healer who isn't asleep at the wheel and a tank who can stay top threat so the healer doesn't take (too many) auto attacks you're going to be fine.

I would go so far as to disagree with Lorgana to a point - you don't need to get good for this fight now, mostly you just have to not be bad.

Compared to its launch you can now take full ak morn hits as a healer or dps (I make it a habit to stack with tanks to keep them alive), stack Levinbolt markers and live, stand outside of puddles for hellfire and live, eat the stack marker with just one or two other people and in 4.4 you won't even need to remember Surecast/arms length.

So no, I would say Shinryu has been sufficiently nerfed at this point. If you happen to get a party of mostly first timers you might have some trouble but that's okay too - he's the final boss of the 4.0 storyline. He should have some teeth.

Wiping isn't the end of the world. Get up, dust yourself off and try again.

[Nalfein]

Disagree as well, the fight is fine as it is. It's a great challenge and to be honest not that hard. Also your passive aggressive attitude is quite pathetic to say the least.

[Hestzhyen]

Sounds like Echo is working as designed then. "Fail until you can brute force" is pretty much what the mechanic is for. All of the mechanics you mentioned were found previously in dungeons and NM trials too. Perhaps not as punishingly implemented, but they were there.

It's good that the playerbase got a wake-up call with this fight... the game is so, so easy for the majority of content and if one fight that makes you pay attention is enough to put panties in knots then I don't know what to say. Git gud for the one fight that asks it as part of story progression? Get carried if you just can't do it for some reason? I mean it's over a year later with > 70 ilvls over what the content was designed for, if people can't stop getting knocked off the platform then they really need to get it together because the outgoing damage is not going to be a big problem for most of the group at this point.

[HyoMinPark]

Royal Menagerie is the ending fight of an expansion. Considering how faceroll Thordan was at the end of Heavensward, and considering how a lot of players considered the fight to be a complete joke and laughed at it, Royal Menagerie is refreshing in that it’s how a final boss fight is supposed to be. Also, let’s consider the lore in how strong Shinryu is supposed to be...

It is most certainly not on the level on Extreme primals. How much experience with Extreme primals do you have? I thin that it must not be much, if you think Royal Menagerie has mechanics on the same level as Extreme fights. The content doesn’t have an item level sync, meaning it will be even easier now compared to how it was in June 2017 at i290, considering Echo + gear discrepancies for those players who get it in Trial Roulette. If your party is falling asleep at the wheel and not performing to an even basic level of adequacy, that’s not the fault of the content.

Casual players also have plenty of time to improve their skill; that is a flimsy excuse at best. Players that fail to improve their skill do so only because they don’t try to, and I don’t think this game should continue to just give hand outs to people because they don’t want to try, I’m sorry.

And before you start your ad hominems, dear White Knights

Hi, ad hominem.

[Kaurhz]

I'm sorry, but if players are to ever get better or realise their own shortcomings then this fight needs to stay the way it is. It's a message that you're in end-game now. Molly coddling people through this content by tuning it down will only do more harm than good to the skill-level of the player-base. Giving fights that people can clear with their eyes closed is only going to turn people into mindless potatoes

If you ask me, this fight should have been slightly more difficult. I would also like to add, these are hardly ex-level mechanics.

[Eloah]

I agree, I like the fight how it is, I did it yesterday just for fun. Granted we wiped once, and I felt bad, since I got others to join, but it was still a fun and engaging fight.

[Lambdafish]

Guys, I have a great idea, why don't we nerf all the fights so we can get everything for free and not need to practice, learn, and improve.

Then again, none of those are needed for Shinryu Normal, so I don't know what to say...


Now on a serious note: OP, if the community is so bad at the game, then it is a direct result of content being nerfed and handed to them on a silver platter without them needing to try, don't encourage the problem when Shinryu was in fact a step in the right direction to seeing the community need to pay attention. See the reaction to Weeping City and Nidhogg normal in 3.3 for similar comments.

[ko_]

See I'm conflicted cause OP I know what you're talking about. I see it ALOT. People who fail dungeons, dungeons before 40 mind you. I see it at endgame where people are so confused they don't know how to click an icon. Yes you read that right. I had a player who didn't know how to click something. The struggle is REAL! I feel you on a very emotional level OP but.. and this is a big but.. not like my miqo. But as much as I want to agree... nerfing the fight isn't going to do any good either. People have been cuddled up to wiping city I feel in some ways so having something that stops and makes people wake up is a good thing. NOW I make the case all the time that people DON'T wake up and simply think they did and all of a sudden think they bad mother jammers, and then die to a mob in a dungeon at 70. Sadly tho, nerfing shinryu is how we got to this point in the first place. Older fights should've NEVER been nerfed but because losers cry and wanna be king without earning the RIGHT to rule. We have to face losers who can't run in Rath, people who don't know orange and red is bad, people who think facing the boss at YOU is normal and etc etc. And people who don't know how to press a skill to make their character hit the boss. I'm seriously not joking. He didn't know how to make his skills work. HOW HE GET TO 70 I have NO CLUE. Rant over . T.T