The toxic Pagos bottleneck and how to solve it

[K1tt]

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

[WhyAmIHere]

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

The thing to ask is this / are these:
1) Is this issue happening often?
1a) if so how often?
2) is this localized to just NA data centers, or is it happening elsewhere?
2a) if so, is it all of them or a combination?
3) is it happening in JP servers to a similar frequency?
3a) if it is or isnt, are the JP players as upset and vocal about it?

[Miles_Maelstrom]

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

Griefing other players is the only option available to us. The monsters for light grinding are an extremely limited resource and there are so many players. So if you form a group and find all the monsters your group needs are currently occupied by other groups your only option are give up and quit playing or grief one of the groups until they do. The design of the instance anything takes hours so there is no waiting your turn, SE also failed to give us any mechanic involving laying claim.

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

[Dragoon4life]

I have an important question to SE that I’d like a legitimate answer too. In 2 months or so How can Eureka even get a nerfed if no one goes in? Has anyone even bothered to think about this? Because honestly I will probably never get more then 1 relic.

[WhyAmIHere]

Griefing other players is the only option available to us. The monsters for light grinding are an extremely limited resource and there are so many players. So if you form a group and find all the monsters your group needs are currently occupied by other groups your only option are give up and quit playing or grief one of the groups until they do. The design of the instance anything takes hours so there is no waiting your turn, SE also failed to give us any mechanic involving laying claim.

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

No.

Nothing is ever a justification for griefing other players. The fact that you think this is the ONLY recourse available, while simultaeneously having Yoshi himself say that people haven't yet found the best method to get light, is pathetic. Loathe as I am to defend that, it's still a point to be brought up.

If doing the same thing over and over and not trying something else isn't working, but people are too disinterested/apathetic to consider trying anything else, I better not hear them once complain about someone griefing them if they feel justified in doing it themselves.

Are people at wit's end about this? Yes, and it's frustrating. Pagos is frustrating.

While not directed at you specifically Miles, I need to use the word you in the general sense here: If you think anything is a good enough reason to grief other players, you're both wrong, and a terrible player looking for an excuse to continue being a jackhole.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Eh. It depends how you define griefing. Many people will consider it griefing if your group attempts to forcibly push another group from their camp spot by sniping the dragons as they spawn yet the design of Pagos all but encourages such competitive and aggressive behavior. Your alternative is significantly less progression or none at all, hoping that particular spawn location is available whenever you have free time to play again. The fact this is even a consideration speaks to how poorly executed Pagos is. The sheer linearity destroys any potential corporation. Yoshida can prattle on about how we haven't found the best method yet, but it's all hot air at this point. After all, he could easily be lying by omission in the vein hope people keep going into Pagos to keep it active. It certainly wouldn't be the first time his PR statement don't line up with actual gameplay components. On the other hand, even if we do take him at face value, then we're back to the aforementioned poor design. There shouldn't be a month long guestimation on how their super special awesome system of relativity works.

Complexity for complexity's sake isn't innovation. It's simply bad design.

[WhyAmIHere]

-cut-

I agree wholesale. Either he's lying through his teeth and he and the team will have to scramble to make what he's saying factual stealthily, or he's being honest and hopes players can figure it out.

They havent.

And there's only so many things one can experiment on that yield less than ideal results. Pagos is poorly designed and not entirely well thought out, I agree and have made that same statement myself.

But griefing for the sake of efficiency at the expense of others in a game that totes "anyone can do any content on anything" is wrong. That sentiment implies a welcoming nature to the game. and for the most part is has that... but we're back to Pagos and how it runs counter to that. Unless it turns out there is a more efficient method that works to promote that. I doubt it, seeing as how aggressively against it the game's current end-game content design doesn't support that.

Honestly I hope 4.4 does something major to address this, else more and more people are going to tire of the content and abandon it, or attitudes like this will only get worse and spread throughout the rest of the playerbase slowly.

tl;dr: Yoshi fix yo game (again).

[Solarra]

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

We do have a choice, we can stop playing. I've got to level 34, the challenge log should get me to 35 and I can do that in Anemos.
I'm not bothering with the light farm until either this fabled 'efficient' method is found or the dev team make changes to Pagos.

The fewer players who bother with this content, the more likely I think they are to change it.
I'd like to say that discussing the issues here is helpful too, but I have serious doubts that any of the points raised, or suggestions for improvements that we post on the forum, actually get back to the devs.

[Mahrze]

I'd like to say that discussing the issues here is helpful too, but I have serious doubts that any of the points raised, or suggestions for improvements that we post on the forum, actually get back to the devs.

Well, based on the silly earrings thread. Its seems they do, at least to a degree.

[JonBigwood]

To fix this I suggest the following changes: reduce light crystal requirements for a weapon to step 1=2 crystals, step 2=3 crystals, step 3=5 crystals.

I think it would be better (and not make the relic so easy) to make lights progress much more than now in NM (mobs maybe too?), so that when you reach 500 crystals you only need maybe some more (5 or 8, but not 15 or 20) light bars plus the 5 Louhi ice (that you will already have for sure.) This way the bottleneck would be much smaller. And not everyone is yet level 35, so it can get worse. Well, people that get burnt and do 1 relic compared to several in Anemos also aliviates the bottleneck but in a less happy way.