Are Dark Knights really that bad right now?

[Megguido]

I am not sure whether your post was ironic on purpose or not. If yes, you forgot "/s", and if not, you totally proved WhyAmIHere's point.

You just said "that would be OP" without suggesting any other solution, or even going into detail. You even claimed DRK "isn't bad" when the job is - without a doubt - underperforming. And saying "it's fine" 'cause they have "never been so close [...] as before" is like saying "I broke my leg once, you just strained yours this time, so it's fine." It's not fine!

Fact: DRK DPS is closer to PLD DPS, it's neither higher nor lower in general. And while their self-mitigation tool kit might be on par, PLD provides more utility. In self-healing and mitigation it's on par with WAR (WAR heals with SP, DRK has TBN; no tank stance), but DRK suffers from having (way) less DPS.

DRK is behind WAR and PLD on damage and utility, we got it. But DRK's damage is not way less than WAR. The difference between those two is around 5% (250 DPS or so), please stop that hyperbole. If DRK needs buff, it's a slight damage up and some QoL, boost that DRK damage by 20% and it'll outclass both WAR and PLD by a good margin (actually way more than WAR/PLD vs DRK right now).

I'm not saying all tanks are perfectly balanced (and that's an utopia), but they are well balanced right now. DRK's still the most durable tank when going full DPS. Both WAR and PLD have to sacrifice damage for their oh-so-great mitigation or healing. Cast Clemency and f.ck up your rotation, turn Defiance on for some Inner Beast and say goodbye to Fell Cleave.

All we can do is suggesting things and hoping for devs to look at it. Giving exact values is kinda pointless since we don't have the big picture. Also, if a job is harder to play properly, should it be more powerful than an easy one ? That question is a tricky game design problem imo. If the harder job is "meta" then everyone will play it regardless of difficulty (means a greater gap between good and average players, which is something SE wants to stay away from), else it will just be under used, which is pretty much DRK's case now.

[Ignacius]

I have all the tanks at 70 and I play them relatively frequently. I specifically use WAR when I don't know the healers (when the defensive heals give me a bit of breathing room for myself if things go wrong) and when I really need to maximize offensive power. For everything else, I actually prefer DRK.

That might seem strange, considering DRK is unquestionably lagging behind PLD and WAR in statistical categories. I wouldn't at all mind DRK being brought up to snuff, at the very least. However, DRK is a LOT more adaptable when you need it to be. I tend to think of it a bit like a Ferrari. It can quite easily go out of control if you're not paying attention, but it's incredibly responsive once you know how everything works. For instance, Onslaught is obviously meant to work like DRK plunge, but DRK plunge is on a straight CD and doesn't cost any Blood, so you can mix it in pretty liberally.

More to the point, Dark Arts changes a lot of your abilities around. You'll never catch up to a WAR in a straight DPS match, nor be quite as survivable as a PLD, but DRKs can form a pretty wide gradient in between. I'm pretty sure a Dark Art-ed Power Slash combo is the most aggro you can generate in the game when you absolutely positively need it now, and it can give you that enmity even outside of Grit. Abyssal Drain tends to make add swarms, even the more dangerous boss ones, easier as you can help heal as you go. CaS can be tuned up for damage or help regenerate mana if you need it. It's all helpful.

The question is what to do so that DRK fills more of the gap. I don't necessarily think DRK NEEDS to be as powerful in DPS as a WAR, but tuning up their consistent damage so that it's more useful on bosses that tend to interrupt Inner Release phases would be a plus (as it stands, WARs even on bad fights are a leap and a bound ahead of the other tanks). As for catching up defensively with PLD, I think DRK can maintain its unique Ferrari-like identity by doing things like tuning Shadow Wall with Dark Arts (maybe using that to somehow turn Blood Price into a functional skill?) I think it can be done, but if SE wants to make sure DRK can be more viable without hurting the other tanks, I think expanding this sort of active decision making, shift-on-the-fly style more prominent and effective would be the way to go.

[Hierro]

So, I am not going to bother anymore. Your posts also sound pretty insulting. It's you not following the discussion, but putting words in others mouth to festen your own discussion and opinion. If you want to state something completely different, don't link to other posts unrelated to your statement, and start your own.



point

All I did was address each point and give a rebuttal. If you want to call casual players who can't beat the tier a part of the raid community who hold valid opinions, then go ahead, but don't go saying "Durr you're still not agreeing, you're missing the point !"

[vVAstrAVv]

Yeah guys
EVERYTHING IS SERIOUS XO

[Phileas]

I wouldn’t say DRK is bad. I just don’t enjoy 4.0 DRK. I just feel like it’s a lot of work managing blood and mp with not too much reward for it. And lack of synergy between abilities makes me sad. Taking away 3.0 dark dance and reprise was such a mistake...

DRK can tank competently but I just feel there is no real edge against war or pld. What do you bring a DRK for? I’m not entirely sure....

[Bhearil]

Problem is while other jobs need low/ medium effort, DRK needs high effort to perform close yet not better than those. Add that its really lacking a personality and niche, and players say "Why pick Drk when X tank is easier and performs far better on low/average skill cap and even on high skill cap they are still behind even if not for much?"

Some people might enjoy DRK, buts thats like those who mained Pala on Heavensward when they were on a serious need of some love because Drk/War were outperforming Pala badly

[Launched]

Problem is while other jobs need low/ medium effort, DRK needs high effort to perform close yet not better than those.

I don't agree with that at all. DRK's difficulty is the most exaggerated thing in the game and in my opinion it's one of the easiest jobs in the game. Pressing buttons more often doesn't add difficulty when it's just Dark Arts over and over again (and spamming Low Blow/Reprisal on cooldown in HW wasn't any different).

[shao32]

I don't agree with that at all. DRK's difficulty is the most exaggerated thing in the game and in my opinion it's one of the easiest jobs in the game. Pressing buttons more often doesn't add difficulty when it's just Dark Arts over and over again (and spamming Low Blow/Reprisal on cooldown in HW wasn't any different).

DRK is harder bcs at contrary that PLD and WAR you have to react and use you skills based on a inconsistent resource generation mechanics, mess with delirium can lead with a masive dps loss, mess with the mp can lead to let you defenseless without TBN, and messing with blood can lead you to or waste blood overcaping or missing the delirium window bcs you dont have enough, compared to just place a brainless burst window of 10 sec where you only worry is spam 1-2 buttons and having a pretty stable gauge/MP generation DRK its obviously the hardest of the 3, but i dont think no one is saying is the hardest job of the game or something like that but of the current tanks.

[Aana]

DRK is harder bcs at contrary that PLD and WAR you have to react and use you skills based on a inconsistent resource generation mechanics, mess with delirium can lead with a masive dps loss, mess with the mp can lead to let you defenseless without TBN, and messing with blood can lead you to or waste blood overcaping or missing the delirium window bcs you dont have enough, compared to just place a brainless burst window of 10 sec where you only worry is spam 1-2 buttons and having a pretty stable gauge/MP generation DRK its obviously the hardest of the 3, but i dont think no one is saying is the hardest job of the game or something like that but of the current tanks.

It is only that hard to hit 99% with on FFlogs. That is the only place that you have to be mega careful with your resources to make sure you can punch the gas when raid buffs come up and save up more in between. Kinda like the old 4.0 warrior. But you really are working hard to make Drk sound complicated. Dont let your MP hit rock bottom (so you can TBN if needed). Dont let your MP cap out or you waste it. Use your your blood when you get 50 on a BS. Congrats you can now hit purple on Drk.

To be fair, different folks have different strengths. Some are much better with explicit, rigid patterns/rotations (like 4.0 war) and do very well with those kinds of systems. Some people are much better go with the flow and a general statement like "always keep enough MP for TBN and dont let it cap" is all the direction they need and perform beautifully. If you find 4.X drk highly difficult it is likely you do better with fixed rigid systems than the more free flow of drk. You cant really plan drk out to the GCD on every fight because there is some flex in resource gen unlike say, war who has extremely binary/rigid resources and rotations. But that doesnt make drk a complex untamable beast. It just has a very different type of gameplay flow.

And of course, more buttons doesnt = hard. Spamming 1 combo and 1 OGCD action really fast doesnt make it somehow harder. It is quite straight forward in that regard, even moreso now that they have further homogenized DA to be the same potency for most actions.

[shao32]

snip

at 80-99% yeah its harder bcs every drop of MP and blood count to keep the barely dps levels we share with PLD on lower % players strugle bcs they have to keep a eye on the MP, on the gauge, on you CD rotation and the tricky spikes of blood of TBN with is a lot more that you have to keep an eye with the other 2, the job itself is harder, the gap of PLD/WAR vs DRK is bigger and bigger the lower % you look so is not a mistery, DRK is the defaul hardest tank of the 3 but in not saying its harder to hell leves lets try to dont take it to that extreme either, and of course depend of the player to but the general consensus its that and the data support it with isnt bad either being a hard job is nice too, its the relation of work and reward.