White Raven earring given out at The Rising event 2018

[Lambdafish]

snip

Who hurt you? It's like you didn't read the thread at all, nor try to understand the opposing viewpoint. You have this really strong view that the opposing side is elitist, selfish and want to take everything away from you, when in fact, we just want the game to be rewarding, it's almost sad that you feel the way you do.

I'd like you for you to quote me where people asked for more timed exclusives rather than the more accurate "This one timed-exclusive, that is that way due to the unfortunate fact that its piece of content can never appear again, should stay that way (or be moved to something equally hard)".

Lets be real here, your suggestions for how to make items hold value permenantly are just insults towards people, and thats not how you debate. The people you are debating against aren't evil and just want the game to be healthy and fun to play.

Heres how rewards stay valuable:

- The devs seriously consider the difficulty of content, and map it on a progression path (or multiple). ARR had this in that you needed to do dungeons and primals to gear up to do raid. All gear had purpose, and content was run because it was part of player goals rather than "for the experience". Think about this: dungeon gear is dead on arrival, and the gear requirements for raiding are very low, there's an obvious solution there.

- The devs rework unsync. Unsync works in theory but there is no care and consideration taken when forcibly expiring content. There shouldn't be such thing as outdated content, just old content. You should be able to clear alexander unsync, people have a right to participate in the content and enjoy the fights, but they should not be rewarded the same with achievements and mounts*. That's not elitist, that's poor content design. The only reason content has an expiration date is because the devs decided that. Its not healthy for new players whose first experience of the game is unsync faceroll at 50, then unsync faceroll at 60, thats how players are conditioned to not try, and expect all content to play itself. Either that or they quit the game because everything dies before they can participate (I've seen that happen personally). In theory, this idea would lead to players playing better, PF being more diverse and full of things to do, and the rewards coming from said content having meaning and purpose, and a sense of accomplishment attached.

- When devs decide to reimplement rewards, they have to consider the impact that the reintroduction will have, and on a deeper level, have someone on the team with a deep understanding of community psychology and how large groups of players play this game. We shouldn't be held to Yoshi Ps personal view of "separating experience and reward" because not everything thinks that way, and while its fine for players to hold that view, the developers most certainly should not (and its unprofessional of Yoshi to just take a side in the debate), and that is why we have we seen "I'm sorry, this was an oversight" too many times from Yoshi P. It doesn't take a genius to realize that some people wouldn't be happy that this happened, but we need someone on the dev team who can say that for certain apparently.

- Ultimately if the devs took as much care of community stability as it does with server stability, threads like this wouldn't even exist.


Do I think any of this will happen? No. But that doesn't discount anyone's opinion, and it definitely doesn't mean that we can't complain to make things start moving in the right direction.



*For the record, I don't own any of the raid mounts that you will inevitably say I want to protect because I'm elitist and want to keep for myself.

[kikix12]

Man...This post have over 13 000 signs, over 2200 words...Sorry in advance for those intending to read it. Good going for those that will actually manage to do that.

Who hurt you?

People that refuse to read stuff literally like it is written...frequently.

You have this really strong view that the opposing side is elitist, selfish and want to take everything away from you, when in fact, we just want the game to be rewarding, it's almost sad that you feel the way you do.

You're a miracle worker. You saw in that post something that absolutely did not exist in it. Bravo.

Here is the quote relevant for this response:

For people to stop being elitist about item possession.

Let's start with the "(...)opposing side is elitist(...)" part.
Do you see the word 'about' there? Yes? Good, because it's very important. It's the same concept as being a genius and having a genius idea. An idiot can have a genius idea once in a while. At the same time a genius can have an utterly idiotic idea. That's because each idea is an individual instance, while 'genius' and 'idiot' are words that depend on the average from the whole, not from a single part.

That is why I specifically said "elitist about item possession", meaning people that, in the instance of owning items, and ONLY owning items, give abstract value based on rarity. It is common, but it doesn't make people any less elitist in that respect even if they are perfectly fine, even generous and friendly, otherwise.

(...)selfish and want to take everything away from you(...)

Now, this is creative. But sorry, I'm from the 'school' that believes that people can't take from me something that I do not possess. As such even if people would successfully stop this event from giving the White Raven Earrings before I got it, there would be no "taking away from me" there. I just wouldn't be given the chance.

In the first place, never did I actually speak specifically about these earrings, surprisingly. What I did say is that Square Enix (or any developer/publisher for that matter) should never release exclusive (time or quantity limited) digital items in a game. What I did not add is that I mean that for subscription games. I didn't since I didn't need to as Final Fantasy XIV is a subscription-based game and that's the only one I brought up previously.

I'd like you for you to quote me where people asked for more timed exclusives(...)

Just read the second quote in my previous post. There's your answer. Ironically, it was not even in any way related to what I wrote originally. It was another instance of you adding stuff to my post that never was there.

Lets be real here, your suggestions for how to make items hold value permenantly are just insults towards people, and thats not how you debate.

Except I never made any suggestions to begin with. Least of all on topic of making items hold value permanently. Yet another thing you did see that did not exist.

I did list three ways that digital items can be given permanent value that I can think of. They are not suggestions. They are how it IS being done. Glamour items, exclusivity through limited supply and exclusivity through exclusion (high difficulty gating). There is nothing to insult there either, nor did I say anything specifically about any person in this thread. All I did was use a word in its slang form (because that's not its normal use, nor is ANY use of the word 'elitist' on this forum, ever, the correct one) to call a certain aspect, a tendency, of humans.

If someone is offended by it then one would need to consider...why?! It's like being offended at being called "smart" or "slim" or "obese". People are offended by things they think are bad if they are CALLED in that way. That's why you hear people that are obese say that they are "thick-boned". Because they know that it's not good for their health to be obese, but for whatever reason (either beyond their control or within it, doesn't matter here) they cannot stop being obese. As such, for someone to be offended by the phrasing "elitist about item possession" they need to think that it is a bad trait to have (because that's necessary for there to be offense) all the while having it (because that's necessary for that offense to apply to them). Otherwise, if I did not specify any person or group of people, how could anyone be offended by it?!

Heres how rewards stay valuable:

Two out of four points are not related to rewards of any sort. One is invalidated by the very people which you think I directed my post to (which I didn't). One is a suggestion with many bad things about it...that still doesn't change anything. Ironically, here you said that it's 'how rewards stay valuable', but you are making suggestions. So the reverse of what you claimed for me. It's kind hilarious now that I think about it.
Let's explain though:

The devs seriously consider the difficulty of content, and map it on a progression path (or multiple).

People will complain that they need to do the dungeon a bunch of times only to get gear for the sake of replacing it all the moment the dungeon they did it for will drop it. What do I mean?!

Dungeon 1 drops gear ilvl400. Dungeon 2 have ilvl requirement of 400 and drops gear ilvl420. Dungeon 3 have ilvl requirement of 410 and drops 430. In any case, there is no other source of ilvl400+ than these dungeons.

Nice progression system?! Yes. Except it doesn't increase the value of the items in any way, shape or form beyond what we currently have. All of these gears will become statistically obsolete the moment you complete a set and start getting higher dungeons items...which can happen within a single day. Ironically, since the above example gives ilvl420 from dungeon 2 while the dungeon 3 needs 410...you can get only half of the set and do the new dungeon...making the other half of the set effectively obsolete on arrival. And the ilvl 430 gear?! How is it any different than the current highest tier gear?!

The moment you scrap the idea of gear having value as glamour, the gear will lose its value completely as soon as a higher ilvl/with better stat combination gear hits the servers. And that means that the gear will lose its value within few months at the latest...exactly how it is now. Nothing at all changes.

Now, let's tackle what you wrote later, about dungeons having gear that's dead on arrival (by means of being weaker than the current high-end gear). That's actually very short-sighted idea that comes from...at best, overestimating players abilities. If a gear with ilvl400 is available and the top tier is ilvl450, then a gear that is ilvl430 will be "dead on arrival" only to those that were good enough to do the high-end content on ilvl400 gear. But there are many players for which it is not that easy. That ilvl430 fills the void letting them gear step by step without having to wait for the end-game content to be vastly overgeared next time ilvl is raised. It's not dead on arrival. It's simply not going to matter to the end-game players as anything more than glamour. That's a difference.

The devs rework unsync.

Content is 'forcibly expired' once it is no longer desired. When people do no longer want to do it. Funny thing is that in last point you said that gear is dead on arrival because it comes as weaker than the end-game gear. At the same time, in this point, you are saying that it's bad for this "dead on arrival" gear to be more easily available because it supposedly have some value to it...Decide then, which is it?! Is inferior gear good or worthless, because you presented two opposite stances on this matter.

And content have expiration date because PLAYERS decided that. Exactly the idea of "it's old content, I don't want to do it if it takes ages". Players don't do the old content for the mounts and stuff if they have to go through it. And removing the rewards from unsynching the dungeon turns it into nothing but "doing it for the experience (metaphysical, not experience points)". Something that you looked down upon as well in the point above about dungeons that are dead on arrival.

Party finder would be no more alive. It was no more alive. People are most interested in the current content exactly because many feel pressured into the "value" of items. Because the experience is NOT enough for them on its own. Proof of that?! Nothing actually stops you from doing these dungeons unsynched. It's an OPTION. If people use it then they WANT it. I'm sorry, but if someone WANTS unsynched run and then quits the game because stuff is facerolled, we're dealing with an actual idiot here. If the person wants the genuine experience, then nothing is stopping them from getting the right ilvl gear and doing it level synced, start a party finder and all that jazz. But they DON'T want to...that's why they DON'T do it. As such, your suggestion would actually spit on players, because it's the players that want it like this. And you would spit on players even more, because it would prevent said players from enjoying the content at all in any way...since they wouldn't be able to find people to run a fluff-only content at high difficulty and time demand.

When devs decide to reimplement rewards, they have to consider the impact that the reintroduction will have(...)

And here we come to the 'fun' part. The part where you literally defend time-limited exclusive rewards.

This is just assumed extension, mind you, but the open-ended wording you used implies that you actually want this 'consideration' to apply to ALL items that are not added permanently from the get-go, AND have it all end in "Don't reintroduce it, ever!". You give 'arguments' as to why reintroduction is 'bad' but give no examples of when it would be good. Therefore the whole "consider the impact" phrase is just a smokescreen to suggest that you are thinking of varied people, but are, in fact, thinking only of people that got it the first time around.

I on the other hand, from the beginning, were saying that the rewards should be defaulted to "The rewards may become widely available in the future." before the original source of them even hits the servers, and that developers have made a massively erred in EVER stating otherwise publicly. See the difference here?! The problem here is that they promised the earrings to be exclusive. That is a broken promise, something I absolutely abhor. For that reason I would prefer the earrings not to be released in the same form, yes. However, that's just a "lesser evil", but "evil" nonetheless.
But let's not start talking about my personal mentality as according to it the number of promises that should not have been made would lead to me firing half the developers and scrapping this crippled game for a "new slate" altogether were I to had a saying. So yes. No need to elaborate.

Ultimately if the devs took as much care of community stability as it does with server stability, threads like this wouldn't even exist.

This doesn't even talk about the game at all, let alone rewards and their value...Really...

But that doesn't discount anyone's opinion, and it definitely doesn't mean that we can't complain(...)

Yeah. And that doesn't discount MY opinion either. You know, fairness is universal...otherwise it's not fair.

My original point in this thread was simply "Developers never should promise or release any exclusive items". Simply this. But I have a tendency to respond to even most irrelevant arguments made against me, so that extended the context to which I posted in here. And this post just snowballed it...

(...)to make things start moving in the right direction.

"Right direction" is entirely subjective. And yes, this IS elitist behavior. Anyone saying that they fight for "the right direction" acts in an elitist manner. And this IS the actual meaning of the word elitist. "A person that considers themselves superior to others.", always right, always correct. You name it. You are NOT universally right. You can try and make things move YOUR PREFERRED way. It is different than other peoples preferred way, however, and dismissing those with the idea that "they are wrong" is exactly what makes one an elitist.

So yes. At this point I DID call you an elitist, in the general manner. To be fair, the way I keep phrasing my points in respect to developers is no different, really. So yes, I do acknowledge that I am an "elitist" as well, as far as this thread goes anyway. The question is...why would I be offended by a fact?! Food for thought, huh.

*For the record, I don't own any of the raid mounts that you will inevitably say I want to protect because I'm elitist and want to keep for myself.

Not relevant. You mixed me with some other poster. Someone that uses such childish arguments and thinks they have value.