How to give advice

[Nixxe]

You're obviously to set the rules for your own PF and exclude anyone you want, but I honestly always found it shortsighted to outright stupid to exclude high personal dps, but non supportive jobs like sam or blm.
Maybe I'm biased because my boyfriend mains a BLM and is pretty amazing at that, but whenever we saw a primal-farm group excluding BLM we felt sorry for them because they just passed on a solid "going to beat enrage"-player.

Midcore players trying to enforce a meta, because they believe thats whats gonna make them hardcore or good (or better) at the game, missed the mark. You can clear any content in the game without the meta and without locking jobs out. (Was it UCoB or UwU that was beat with a non-meta-set-up, including a DRK, pretty close to world first? I think it was UCoB...)

Again: You have the right to lock out jobs, if you want to. Or lalafell. Or anyone who picked the Twin Adders as GC.
But to colour every BLM/SAM with the same brush, maybe because of bad experience or just because of stuff you've heard, seems rather unfair and, well, shortsighted to me.
Enforcing the meta, locking out jobs or asking for "no double jobs!" in content where the LB doesnt matter as much/will fill fast enough for when you need it anyways (so basically anything except Byakko EX, if you want to "cheese" it) doesnt make you pro. To me it mainly shows that you didnt understand that much about the game after all.

I can assure you: BLM and SAM can clear content in the game just as much as every other job can. And even a support-heavy bard will hold the group back, if the player behind it, isnt skilled enough. Its far more about the players skill, than the job - crit-buffs and mana-regens can only make up for so much.
Locking out jobs because you had bad experiences with people playing those jobs or heard things about the "meta" or how those jobs suck, seems rather prejudiced to me.
But you do you - just know that not every BLM/SAM is out there to waste other peoples time or decrease their chances of clearing fights. When properly played, they're pretty good at ensuring that the party meets their goal of killing a thing, since thats what they're best at.

I didn't color anyone with any brush, let alone everyone with the same brush. The person I'm responding too called it toxic for people to have job-based preferences when forming groups. It's not.

You insinuated that it was the developer's fault that people ostracize each other in content over the meta compositions that world first usually tries to enforce while everyone else tries to copy and follow suit afterwards. That's all on what you said, not me. And shortly after I had said that such kinds of logic still made it wrong to do so in my eyes, you immediately jumped to an ad hominem to try and get your point across...calling me entitled because you couldn't attack the argument and instead decided that attacking the person was far easier. If anyone put their nose into someone's business directly right away, it was you dear. I never attacked you first, I attacked the concept of ostracizing players because of the jobs that they play from content, and yet you took it personally for whatever reason afterwards because I found the idea of it, not insinuating you at all, as toxic behavior. Only after you had called me entitled did I follow suit by calling you arrogant afterwards.

Maybe not throw stones first, if you're going to start complaining that I'm defending myself from your baseless slander in the first place? I mean, there's a novel idea...if you didn't care, then maybe you shouldn't have been so abrasive in the first place. Did I ever state that I play with people in Savage not from my static? No, I did not. Point me in the direction where I ever said directly that I should be entitled towards random Savage players for their time and labor, find it, and you may have a case. The burden of proof lies on you, not me.

A novel concept would be to not get offended when the other person you've personally attacked with baseless insults decides to defend themselves from utter bs. You're not looking to debate, you're just looking for me to say that you're right and I'm sorry, but I don't think that you are and you can continue name-calling me all you want. It makes you out to be the lesser person in the end by continuing to do so.

If nothing else, you are incredibly imaginative.

[Sigma-Astra]

If nothing else, you are incredibly imaginative.

Well, I figured that you wouldn't be able to prove anything. So, I'm not surprised that lines like this continue to be your last resort.

And here I thought Balmung players were suppose to be nice people.

[JohnSeal]

Surprises surprise I wake in the morning and still this thread is “hot” but not surprised out of topic now lol
People at the begin were talking about “how to give advice” and many people agree that the way you talk to others matter and some way to boss peoples around unsettle inexperienced player.
Still there are player willing to learn and others that are not.

Everybody agrees that the game doesn’t provide enough instruments to master your class from early stage,some classes are really intuitive to learn and other more complicated, some class evolve lvl by lvl and other totally change at lvl 70.
Practice and master you class is everything especially when you enter in Savage,Ex contents.

At lvl 70 everybody are forced to dedicate time to study, research and optimise a rotation before to enter savage.
Example someone makes like RDM not using melee skills,BRD not using heavy shot etc refers to player that don’t know how to play, don’t practice and don’t study enough so are not able or suppose to join savage content because this is basic knowledge.

Totally different story for players that know all they need to know and master their rotation but they just need to practice the content itself.
Many classes without muscle memory and right positioning are really difficult to optimise, I honestly can’t play melee at all because I am not confident with the gameplay itself of standing close all time but still I know the rotation well.
BLM is really difficulty to optimise because if you can’t stand still then you can’t deal dmg it takes more than few runs to practice positioning and everything in a specific content so that’s why many parties prefer other ranged. Also in progression or not a support class is required and a RDM with ability to Rez is really welcomed but a SMN also because are more agile and flexible to move. Sam it’s pretty great and much easier to play than other melees and got some great dmg so it’s good at any level. People want DRG/mnk or NIN but that not ostracism at all because their buffs are great for the team.

Top players are over 6k (7k for BLM and Sam) but that is not essential for clear savage content at all! The DPS checks are pretty large really luckyly for us and you can clear as well with 4 DPS that deal average of 5k each. All 4 DPS can have all green logs but still clear it with no problem if nobody makes mistakes.
It’s really rare to find DPS so bad that are setting the team to fail, I have been doing raids farm the last week and got uncountable clears now and it happen three times to be forced to kick a DPS for severely underperforming, three player out of 100 so that is not a lot (: Honestly most of player getting kicked ( not by me) in parties are tank for making horrendous mistakes or not using cds and endangering the group or healers for same reasons.

[NanaWiloh]

To 1: If you want to figure things out on your own, thats fine. If its something like boss mechanics etc. I'll even gladly do a blind run and keep my mouth shut. But if you want to figure out your rotation on your own, then do it on your own time aswell, not in a dungeon. There are training dummies out there, if you want to try out a (new) rotation. There are tooltips, that you should read before you enter a dungeon - not in the middle of it (only expection being ofc if you level up in a dungeon and just got the new skill). With how this game works, there is very little wiggle room on rotations and they're also pretty straight forward. There isnt much to figure out or try out to begin with. And you dont need to be in a dungeon to figure most things out - all you need to do is sit down, read your tooltips and then think for a moment in what situations that skill is useful.

Wanting to "figure out stuff on your own" isnt a proper argument against advice that concerns someones basic-rotation in content where they reasonably should be expected to have it figured out. And if you havent, then accept that people will point that out to you.

To 2: I'll repeat myself, by saying that advice should be given in a polite and friendly manner, but thats all. If someone calls anyone a jerk because of unrequested, yet polite and friendly advice or thinks of them that way, the problem here doesnt lie with the person giving the advice, but the person reciving it.
Dont get angry or butthurt, because someone in a team-based game noticed a weakness of yours and gave you advice on how to fix it.

Its a two way street one side gives other recieves both sides have issues with the other. From it we get threads like this one where both sides present their view on giving advice. :P I will forever remain a silent party as far as givng and recieving advice in game goes.

[JohnSeal]

Long story short: practice is everything at any lvl and with any job, but for tank and healers tge requirement are relatively easier compare to DPS.
Explaining myself: healers need to keep everybody alive,you can spam healing if you panicked or are inexperienced as far as you do your best and you have global uptime over 90% (better 95%) during the fight, so if everybody is full you attack ofc. Essential is to know how to use your skills correctly ( like you don’t cure III if the party is not in a 3y range or you don’t succor again if the shield is not broken easy stuff) .
Tanks have straightforward task in a fight, you learn it and do it correctly, hold aggro and use cds stop.
For DPS is a really delicate job of counting timers, not make any mistake or your dmg is gone while dodging or stacking promptly, in many case 1 mistake or death cost you the entire run and all your dmg.
So that’s why I don’t expect DPS to deal 6k + each run at all time but to follow mechs and not make mistake come first.

[Lubu_Mykono]

Long story short: practice is everything at any lvl and with any job, but for tank and healers tge requirement are relatively easier compare to DPS.
Explaining myself: healers need to keep everybody alive,you can spam healing if you panicked or are inexperienced as far as you do your best and you have global uptime over 90% (better 95%) during the fight, so if everybody is full you attack ofc. Essential is to know how to use your skills correctly ( like you don’t cure III if the party is not in a 3y range or you don’t succor again if the shield is not broken easy stuff) .
Tanks have straightforward task in a fight, you learn it and do it correctly, hold aggro and use cds stop.
For DPS is a really delicate job of counting timers, not make any mistake or your dmg is gone while dodging or stacking promptly, in many case 1 mistake or death cost you the entire run and all your dmg.
So that’s why I don’t expect DPS to deal 6k + each run at all time but to follow mechs and not make mistake come first.

This is so wrong, healers and tanks in this game are held to the same DPS requirements as the "DPS" classes. Yes DPS is not their focus, but they should be trying to do as much optimal DPS as possible in a given fight given the safe opportunity to do so. Yes it is difficult, but it's part of the job. This isn't WoW where you have healers that can just heal and do nothing else.
If DPS didn't matter than tanks or healers wouldn't have any DPS moves or rotations that require reaction and planning to get off as much as possible, in a given situation.

[JohnSeal]

This is so wrong, healers and tanks in this game are held to the same DPS requirements as the "DPS" classes. Yes DPS is not their focus, but they should be trying to do as much optimal DPS as possible in a given fight given the safe opportunity to do so. Yes it is difficult, but it's part of the job. This isn't WoW where you have healers that can just heal and do nothing else.
If DPS didn't matter than tanks or healers wouldn't have any DPS moves or rotations that require reaction and planning to get off as much as possible, in a given situation.

I disagree by half of what you say...
Yes healers are suppose to DPS as more as they can, that mean you can DPS if you are not healing. You can DPS if everybody has been healed and shielded that’s the priority, I never accepted players standing still during a fight that’s why the total uptime is relevant, you have DPS skills ofc. I definitely hate healers that refuse to heal properly and focus on dmg, negletting their main priority! I will fight with all strength I have this kind of people!
I have been playing yesterday in 07s with a healer that was expecting me to solo heal, she was just using regen,divine and assise not one single cure on burning player,not one single medica on the group and I fought with her because was not right. I much prefer to play with healer with 1k dmg but they heal with all their strength, if are inexperienced and they can’t DPS a lot that’s fine I don’t mind lol
Tanks have really rotations so they can DPS effectively.
As I said many time experience matter a lot (:
Surely you don’t judge the quality of a healer by the amount of dmg they make but by their ability to deal with crisis, adaptation to circumstance and how use their skills, how much they overheal in a fight .

[Kikoten]

Meh, unsolicited advice, to me, is a take-it-or-leave-it thing. They can spend energy giving advice, but it's in your power to take it or leave it in the end. If you take it, great, they made a difference. If you leave it, great, they wasted their energy trying to change the way someone else plays the game.

[Ilan]

While i would understand people if the person would've been overly aggressive, i don't understand if this person just gave a simple advice.
Honestly i can't understand people who feel insulted or what not if someone gives them an advice. Don't you understand that people try to help you?

In this game it is always the same with people:

give them advice if they do something wrong:
you are an a..hole that tries to help someone without beeing asked

kick someone who does things wrong:
you are an a..hole that doesn't want to help others

don't que up in DF because people don't want your advice if they do things wrong:
guess what you are again the a..hole who doesn't help others

I have never seen a community with so many special snowflakes who feel offended by everything that someone does. You call it entitlement or elitism? Normal people would call that helping to improve the enjoyment of the game for everyone.

I wonder what these people would do in other MMO's or MOBA's where people will flame them hard if they keep messing up and refuse to take advice.

[ManuelBravo]

All this can be solve in a simple manner. They don't ask you don't give. IF 3 wipes then you tell being your now being affected by incompetence and is ruining your entertainment value.