How to give advice

[Sigma-Astra]

It's like no one even bothered to read the op. You win. I'm out.

We all read the OP, you're just taking everything at face value and then proceeding to be antagonistic about it over anyone that may disagree. Perhaps the forums are not for you then...?

[Sigma-Astra]

Warning: I'm venting and this has been said before, but it bares repeating.

So on Friday I'm doing a simple Duty Finder dungeon run. I'm blm, not the best, but I'm learning my rotation. I can get Flare up pretty fast. I tend to use the same basic rotation on both single and group targets. Yes, I should work on that.

Yes, you probably should. If you're having trouble bouncing back between single target and multi-targets, then practice each rotation on a training dummy because it's absolutely imperative that you use both correctly since BLM is suppose to be a high damage class. If you're being outmatched by a RDM, well....that's not good, lol.

There's no reason to use Fire IV on a multi-pack no more than there's no reason to use Flare on a single target. Foul is okay though if you're gonna have another one proc anyways, better to use a Foul on a single target, than let it go to absolute waste because it's suuuuuch a good chunk of damage.

I've messed up a couple of times as well, just keep practicing. The rotations aren't too hard to switch mindsets once you've done it enough with repetition. If you see 2-3 targets? Fire IV them to the ground. More than 3+? Flare them to the ground (or Fire 2), but multiple Flares is suppose to be better in terms of damage spikes considering Triplecast and Convert (plus Ethers) lets you cast 3 or more in a row on some trash mobs.

[Vidu]

I find this is a bit of a difficult and touchy subject - in a case like yours, where fine-tuning seems to be the main issue, I would personally deem it more appropriate to offer to give advice instead of just blasting it out aswell, but since you made more of a general statment here, I would like to call that into question.

First: If someone totally fails at the basics of their job, specially a tank or healer, specially in content past Ifrit NM, I dont see the need to politely ask if I'm allowed to give them the most basic advice. I will not ask if I may tell the gladiator that they need to use Flash. (And yes, I know, that it wasnt about the most basic-concept of BLM in your case, but if you make such a general statment, I'd like to show when it doesnt or shouldnt hold true anymore).

Second: Even beyond the most basic advice, I dont see the need to beg people to let me tell them that they're getting certain, very specific things (like AoE-spells vs. non-AoE-spells and when to use which) wrong. Its a waste of everyones time if all you want to do is let the person in question know that Thunder IV isnt stronger than Thunder III when used on a single target. (And yes, I know, in your case it was followed by a whole lecture, from the sound of the OP, but again: general statment and such).

Third: If you are already aware that you're struggeling with a job, I personally always found it very useful to let the party know before hand real quick that I'm rusty on said job and still learning. Specially in past level 50 or even more so level 60 content. And yes, you can obviously say "I'm in a leveling dungeon, it should be obvious that I'm still learning!" and it should be infact obvious, but I always wanted to give my fellow team-mates the courtesy to let them know that I'm fully aware of not being a geart ninja and that any advice would be appriated.
Thats a bit of an issue that I'm having with your statment there - you are aware that you're not a great BLM (yet) and thats obviously not a problem!
However, I've always believed that you shouldnt have to beg people to be allowed to tell them things they should already know or be able to do. Advice should be given in an appropriate and polite manner, but I've seen so many people out there who believe they dont need to hear or follow advice that the overall skill of the playerbase would decrease even more if it were up to them to decide wether or not they need it (surprise: they think they dont and believe they play like young gods already - anecdotal, but to illustrate: Last week I met a level 50+ BLM in KoL, who didnt use Fire II on groups of 4+ mobs, because he felt Fire I was stronger. Even after being told otherwise.)

I will not beg to give (fundamental) advice.
If you have an issue with advice given to you, I can understand that - its annoying, specially if you actually know better and are already busy beating yourself up about the mistake you just made. But personally I always found it more helpful for myself and the groups I ran into, to inform that I'm not terribly familiar with the job in question, but are trying to figure things out and that advice would be welcome.

I'm getting the impression that a lot of people - maybe you aswell, OP - think of advice as a personal attack, which makes it really difficult and annoying to give out any advice or even offer advice. Even by asking "Hey, do you mind me giving some advice on your rotation?", you're implying that there is an issue with said rotation and I've seen a lot of people taking offense at the suggestion that they might not play like the young gods they think they are.
What needs to change here is not only the way that some advice is given (advice should always be given in a polite manner), but also the way advice is recived (not as a personal attack, but as feedback that the game itself gives terribly little of by itself).

Its not that I dont understand what you mean, but I'm saying there are other ways to deal with this problem - mainly to inform your party that you're learning/struggeling with the job or are still new to it/rusty.
If you absolutly dont want advice, thats the least you can do - besides the obvious going into a dungeon, knowing how to play.

[Angus]

.....Well, no one asked to hear your mouth either, but here we are listening to it. People wanting to help out newbies are the entitled ones now? If the guy was an arse about giving advice, I could understand it. But, if they were trying to be polite, there's no reasoning why the person can't take constructive criticism about it and try to improve upon themselves. We're taking the anecdotal evidence of the OP at large when the person in question may not have even been rude and they could possibly be just angrily venting (which they admitted) and blowing things out of proportion. I'm taking the OP with a grain of salt as miscommunications happen within the DF ALL OF THE TIME since tones can be misconstrued.

I'll give you that maybe they thought they weren't rude, but it didn't come off that way in a text based chat. They also continued to made rude gestures at the end. If I had known this person, then I might have thought they were just being casual, but they were a stranger. We were in a combat situation. People need to be more careful when communicating in a text based system.

I've been in parties where players gave advice in a friendly constructive manner, THIS wasn't one of them.

[MuseTraveller]

It really depends on the tone. If someone gives me tips while acting all condescending, I'm likely to do the opposite just to spite them but I do look into the tip - if they were right, I'll take it to heart.

I've seen quite the opposite however. Last time someone gave me tips while leveling my astro, they were like "please don't take this poorly but I think you should use this and not that" ... it's like people are afraid to give feed back cause people flip so often. I thanked the guy, did as they said, gave comm at the end. /shrug

So yes, tips are welcomed just don't be a douche when you give them. Likewise, don't be a sensitive snowflake when someone tries to improve your gameplay.

[MageBlack]

Its not what you say but how you say it.

I recently had someone ask me, while tanking a dungeon, why i was only doing my buchers block combo. They werent too rude about it, just curious. Rather than get offended i decided to explain. It wasnt really needed for me to do more than buchers block and Cyclone, not on trash fights anyway. For bosses I would build up my bar then wait for a safe moment to swap stances, unleash the beasts, then pop back. After explaining that it really didnt matter if I go ham on everything or not I decided to actually go all out on the final boss, just to show him, yes, i do know how to play. Hey, if SE only puts in minimal effort to making the content, then I'll be deadpools lazy brother "Minimal effort!" lol. I'm not like that all the time but sometimes, after doing the dungeon for the 5th time in a row, I lose interest or start to nodd off.

Well, the point of that was to show that its not just how people come across to you but also how you perceive what they say. We read things how we feel, if i'm feeling defensive and someone tells me I could be doing better, I might read it in the "Annoying Customer" voice instead of a David Attenborough.

[Vidu]

I'll give you that maybe they thought they weren't rude, but it didn't come off that way in a text based chat. They also continued to made rude gestures at the end. If I had known this person, then I might have thought they were just being casual, but they were a stranger. We were in a combat situation. People need to be more careful when communicating in a text based system.

I've been in parties where players gave advice in a friendly constructive manner, THIS wasn't one of them.

I agree with you that advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive manner.
That does not involve asking for permission to give advice in the first place for me though.

You should also keep in mind that not everyone speaks english as a native language, so sometimes things might sound weird or even rude to you, when they werent intended that way. A major contributor to that is also the "we were in combat" thing. When I'm in combat, I dont have the time to type a long wided novel with a lot of "please and thank you" to get a simple point like "Thunder IV is an AoE-spell, please use Thunder III on a single target instead" across.

[Melichoir]

Can't sympathize. I don't understand the people with your mindset who think they are above criticism and that people need to sugarcoat every little word they say. You already admit you should work on that, so instead of getting upset take the good points and learn from the situation.

You dont pay my sub!!!

Joke aside though, you shouldnt go up to a person and be like "You suck, let me tell you how to not suck. Be grateful". I mention this for a few reasons:

1) If youre a stranger to them, who the heck are you to them? Sorry, but they dont know you. They dont know how much an expert you are, or anything. So any advice you want to give them can and usually does get lost on deaf ears because they dont know you. IF ANYTHING, you should be redirecting them to community sources that are widely agreed upon, like the discord server for all this stuff.

2) You dont have to be an jerk hole about things either. Ask them, and be polite about it. Its really surprising how many people do not get this: A little common courtesy goes a loooooong way. You think theyre doing it wrong, be like "Hey, Im a 'x' main and pretty good. I think you might be doing your rotation wrong. Ive some pointers if youd like." Or something like that. Going up to them and being like "You suck you scrub. Do this and this and maybe youll be able to git gud. Dur hur, be grateful cause Im sharing my expertise with you." isnt productive. IMAGINE, for a second, if you were doing something and you thought you were doing ok, and some random stranger walked up to you and was like "Hey, you suck. Let me show you how its done. You should be grateful Im taking time to show you how to not suck." Its off putting and comes off as offensive.

3) People learn at their own pace. Assuming theyre not trying to get better, and patronizing them by showing them how its 'done' is freaking annoying. You DONT know anything about that player unless youve been playing with them consistently. They may be trying to learn something. Again, being a jerk to them assuming they suck and youre super good isnt productive.

And to address the point you make about people hwo are above criticism: My experience is that those people are Few and Far between. They exist, but most people will be willing to give you an ear if you are pretty chill with them. But hey, that requires a touch of effort.

[ko_]

Eh I'm two ways about it. I'd ask because just throwing out tips without context isnt helping anyway. You cant see tone in text so if you're just throwing out tips without asking if the person wants to hear. You're just asking for them to not listen or start a fight. Tho I understand why people feel the need to do that. But you know what everyone should do? Treat people how you want to be treated. Dont be a dick, no matter WHERE you stand.

[Sigma-Astra]

I'll give you that maybe they thought they weren't rude, but it didn't come off that way in a text based chat. They also continued to made rude gestures at the end. If I had known this person, then I might have thought they were just being casual, but they were a stranger. We were in a combat situation. People need to be more careful when communicating in a text based system.

I've been in parties where players gave advice in a friendly constructive manner, THIS wasn't one of them.

Then, you just got to roll it off and let it go. Basically, the "don't let one rotten apple spoil the bunch". It's bad enough that most people are afraid to give out advice towards newbies simply because of cases where we've gotten our heads bitten off for it and that should never be the case when someone is trying to be helpful and polite.