When should I drop tank stance?

[Aana]

And now, part deux:

Aana, outside of Savage content, this really doesn't matter. Seriously, it doesn't. Ok, so you stay in DPS stance the whole fight... And assuming all goes well, DPS uses their enmity reducing cooldowns, your healers are on the ball, etc. etc., your reward for this is... you clear a few minutes faster? Yeah, really.[/B]

In closing, I just want to remind everyone that there are no endless races against the clock in Normal content. No unforgiving timers. No lofty DPS threshholds. So please, stop applying Savage logic to everything, especially when you can't control variables like you can in statics where you get to cherry pick everyone who fits your standards of what the ideal player is. It simply doesn't happen in PUGs, so you adapt and overcome, even if it means you have to sacrifice DPS or carry others.

"There is no NEED to tank outside of Tank Stance in low tier content" message you portray here is NOTHING like your original post that spawned all this.

In Savage content, as MT, two enmity rotations followed by a switch to DPS stance is pretty much mandatory if you want to stand any reasonable chance of achieving sufficient overall DPS. Yes, it is most certainly true that Shield Oath does take away a fifth of your overall DPS, but exactly which stance is optimal outside of the aforementioned content is a decision best left to the tank themselves.

This is flat out wrong. Savage tanking generally involves ZERO enmity combos because in savage, people have to coordinate and work together or they die. This includes enmity.

Now, I'll go out on a limb and say that anyone who does large pulls in dungeons in their DPS stance is a fool.

You have made a number of erroneous assumptions about savage content and called people who mass pull dont without tank stance fools. No one has actually contested that being out of tank stance for low tier content 'compromises runs' as you put it. However you have claimed its stupid too and in came a swath of people who do it on the daily saying thats bunk on top of showing some ignorance of high level play. Someone who says you need multiple enmity combos in savage to have a prayer in savage and offense stance big pulls are for fools is obviously not playing at the top of their game because people are doing it every day without any problems.

Now spinning it around as if we are saying you HAVE to do big pulls and lower content out of tank stance is disingenuous. No one made that claim. We were simply refuting yours. You shouldnt have gone out on that limb without knowing it was sturdy.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

"There is no NEED to tank outside of Tank Stance in low tier content" message you portray here is NOTHING like your original post that spawned all this.


This is flat out wrong. Savage tanking generally involves ZERO enmity combos because in savage, people have to coordinate and work together or they die. This includes enmity.

And I conceded that times and strategies have changed in another of my responses. What's the problem, here?

You have made a number of erroneous assumptions about savage content...

Correction. One. At least insofar as the ones that were quoted and expounded upon.

...and called people who mass pull dont without tank stance fools.

I mean no disrespect, but when someone takes a gamble like that with randos of varying levels of skill, they are, in fact, a fool. Just because they sometimes get lucky doesn't mean they weren't being foolish. Still, kudos for pulling it off under those circumstances. Also, see my statement regarding: "I'm of the opinion that healing is a two-man job, and I don't think it's the Healer's job to be my babysitter and pull my bacon out of the fire every time I'm being a reckless idiot."

Let me ask you a question: At what point do we balance fun with "optimal" gameplay? When you can answer this question civilly, I believe we can start to have a meaningful discussion on this topic.

No one has actually contested that being out of tank stance for low tier content 'compromises runs' as you put it.

That's not the impression I got, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

However you have claimed its stupid too and in came a swath of people who do it on the daily saying thats bunk on top of showing some ignorance of high level play.

Incorrect. I said it was irrelevant to achieving the successful completion of said content.

"Ignorance of high level play"...? Eh... Whatever makes you feel "superior," dude. :3

Someone who says you need multiple enmity combos in savage to have a prayer in savage and offense stance big pulls are for fools is obviously not playing at the top of their game because people are doing it every day without any problems.

Except I never said that, but I can certainly appreciate a good straw man.

Now spinning it around as if we are saying you HAVE to do big pulls and lower content out of tank stance is disingenuous. No one made that claim. We were simply refuting yours. You shouldnt have gone out on that limb without knowing it was sturdy.

As disingenuous as implying that anyone who can't achieve said feats of skill is obviously unworthy of enjoying our company or even playing this game?

Ah, well. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I guess I'll have to think upon what I said.

[TouchandFeel]

Tank stance is like a pair of trousers, only to be dropped when you know those you're with are willing and accepting of what comes next, and when in the right company is totally optional.


*Honestly, I have nothing to add and just wanted to say that.*

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

Tank stance is like a pair of trousers, only to be dropped when you know those you're with are willing and accepting of what comes next.

With the right group they become totally optional

*Honestly, I have nothing to add and just wanted to say that.*

You, sir, are an angel. Have one free internet on me.

[Hierro]

Yo, what is up with everyone jumping on some blanket statement that was addressed along time ago? He even conceded! Yet still beating on that poor, dead horse. Let it rest, guys.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

Guess it's a good thing we aren't on the same server and/or run content together, then.

Cheers.

ETA: This was in response to a now deleted post. Please disregard. ^^

[whiskeybravo]

If you can pull it off, my hat goes off to you, but it's also a perfect example of "just because you can doesn't mean everyone else should."

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is where the logic is flawed. Yes, just because you "can" doesn't always mean you "should". But this in and of itself doesn't actually invalidate the claim all tanks are capable of tanking bosses and mass pulling in DPS stance. It's 2 separate arguments:

1) Tanks can tank in DPS stance
2) Every tank should only tank in DPS stance

1 is undeniable fact, proven by players every day. 2 is a subjective opinion that varies from player to player. For me personally, I only push it with friends. For regular DF randoms I suck it up on big pulls and only swap to dps stance for bosses. That's just basic "etiquette" IMO.

In closing, I just want to remind everyone that there are no endless races against the clock in Normal content. No unforgiving timers. No lofty DPS threshholds. So please, stop applying Savage logic to everything, especially when you can't control variables like you can in statics where you get to cherry pick everyone who fits your standards of what the ideal player is. It simply doesn't happen in PUGs, so you adapt and overcome, even if it means you have to sacrifice DPS or carry others.

But this all kind of dodges the fact that the OP was seeking to get information on how best to accomplish tanking in DPS stance. Not to start an argument about whether it's right or wrong, or whether everyone should be doing it or not. Of course these kind of debates are inevitable.. But this kind of statement is quite irrelevant to the conversation. If someone wants to learn how to do something, it's better to try and teach them correctly instead of scolding them for even considering the idea.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

It's 2 separate arguments:

1) Tanks can tank in DPS stance
2) Every tank should only tank in DPS stance

And you are 100% correct on 1), because heck, even -I- do it. XD

I do believe something needs to be clarified, however. It is not the OP that I take issue with; in fact I never once addressed the OP at all. Rather, it is 2) that I take issue with, because there are just simply too many variables in PUGs to expect everyone to take that sort of risk. Like you, I too "suck it up" and only drop Shield Oath after a couple of enmity combos on a dungeon boss.

I think the supreme irony that's lost on a lot of people here is that when you're pulling, you're not actually really doing a whole lot of DPS. So what's the point? Unless we're talking about pulling in tank stance and then switching to DPS stance after the pull stops, but that's not the impression I've been getting.

[Nynuwe]

The OP is still learning the basics of the role, and specified it within the context of dungeons. To bring up savage raiding in a post like this is like bringing up points on how to be race cars in a post about someone learning how to ride a bicycle unassisted. He isn't there yet, and the things you do in savage raiding don't necessarily transfer to a dungeon setting. Different setting, different strokes. It's more helpful to stay on point than to have fights about content the OP isn't ready to do as a tank yet.

So on to the actual point of the post:
It depends on several factors. First, to clarify, pulling refers to the stage when a tank runs to grab monsters using enmity generating skills appropriate for such. The tank can continue running to grab more groups of monsters if it is feasible. During this phase, the tank isn't actually fighting these groups of monsters yet. The DPS stance serves little to no purpose during this stage. You aren't doing DPS yet and you have monsters slapping your butt. A tank stance makes more sense, especially with randoms in the group involved. When you decide you pulled enough and stop, that's when the actual fight commences. Depending on how strong the DPS are, you may want to further establish enmity before commencing your DPS combos. Yes, this is when you want to consider switching to the DPS stance. With a good group, this is highly recommended. Watch the list of monsters to keep an eye on the enmity, and do your enmity combos when required. Word of caution, however, if your gear and your healer's gear are not up to par, you may want to remain in tanking stance until the group of monsters gets smaller, and you are not getting hit as badly. If you are taking big hits fast, the higher DPS may not be worth the trade off. A living tank is better than a dead tank. As always, whether you are in tank or dps stance, do your defensive actions as necessary (try not all at once so you can have one handy at all times) to help mitigate damage and help your healer help you stay alive.

If you feel that it isn't safe enough to switch out of tanking stance because of your gear or because of the group make-up you are in, that's fine. The thing about randoms is that... they're random. There's no guarantee or knowledge of how good and prepared they are, so it is acceptable to err on the side of caution until you fully know what you are dealing with. As long as you are keeping yourself alive, and finish that dungeon, you succeeded. The more dungeons you run as tank, the better you will get at discerning what's best for the group from the perspective of a tank. You'll be able to discern when to switch stances faster and more accurately. Call it your tank intuition. It can only develop with practice. In time, you will be stance dancing with ease and confidence. So go you, and tank your little heart out. Cheers.

[whiskeybravo]

Unless we're talking about pulling in tank stance and then switching to DPS stance after the pull stops, but that's not the impression I've been getting.

I believe most are referring to swapping stances after the pull/initial threat/initial cooldowns have been used. That's how I do it anyways.

All that other junk about checking your party members gear, asking permission, etc is just poppycock. Maybe I'm just an inconsiderate bastard, probably at least halfway so, but people have to learn their limitations. If I screw up and the party wipes I usually always take the blame regardless of whose fault it actually was, I've never berated a healer or DPS. Nor have I berated a tank for NOT pulling big groups when I level other jobs. So it doesn't bother me, and I don't recall ever getting into it with someone. I go in there, do what I'm supposed to do and GTFO.