can you pls stop asking SE to do content easier?

[Granyala]

What do you want? My impression was you wanted encounters that negate the trinity within the constraints of Final Fantasy XIV's established systems. Yes, that would leave DPS' jobs mostly intact.

Would a chicken-run encounter suck more for a hard casting Black mage than a Summoner who can rely on DoTs? Absolutely.
Would the tryhard community shun suboptimal DPS, no matter how the encounter is tuned? Eeeh they already do, nothing new here.

However, and this is where the "I do not expect DPS players to understand" comes from: you would still get to play your role. Hitting stuff on the head to make it go "ouch".

If you abandon the trinity for any encounter, that is ALL that remains. W/o healing and tanking, what is there to do but kite and DPS?
I have a problem with that kind of gameplay, because I like the segregation of roles.
I like being the ones that heals people. I played the "hit stuff till it dies" role for 10 years in another MMO. Was fun but now I want sth else.

PS: I know that healers and tanks already have an absurd fixation on DPS in this game, esp in raiding. While I like to throw a stone or two when no healing is needed, I do NOT want any sort of shift towards more of that (seriously, a 3 button DPS "rotation" bores me to tears and the mashing of the stone button hurts my hands).
Honestly: esp in easier content, there is already too little to heal but SE is apparently too chicken to address that, lest all the baddies start whining. >.<

[Sigma-Astra]

What do you want? My impression was you wanted encounters that negate the trinity within the constraints of Final Fantasy XIV's established systems. Yes, that would leave DPS' jobs mostly intact.

....I told you my theory and what I wanted in the last commentary. Though, how would you define mostly intact? Because several abilities would have to be reworked fully or they'd be outright useless in non-trinity style combat.

Would a chicken-run encounter suck more for a hard casting Black mage than a Summoner who can rely on DoTs? Absolutely.
Would the tryhard community shun suboptimal DPS, no matter how the encounter is tuned? Eeeh they already do, nothing new here.

This feel mostly like goading to me, not to mention, people don't just shun certain DPS, but tanks and healer combinations as well. Though, not so much with the healers anymore and the Dark Knight flack is starting to lessen over time. You'll get the few rare apples that hate Dark Knights in endgame still.

However, and this is where the "I do not expect DPS players to understand" comes from: you would still get to play your role. Hitting stuff on the head to make it go "ouch".

....Yea, this is starting to sound like a debate where you mostly just want to be told that you're absolutely right and nothing else, instead of bouncing off of ideas. So, I'm just going to kind of stop this here because I see us getting no where if that's your sole reasoning to say that silly line. I could just as easily say something like "I don't expect healers to understand me", but I won't because it's the most absurd reasoning to use in order to say something along the lines of "My opinion is more validated than yours. So, deal with it".

If you abandon the trinity for any encounter, that is ALL that remains. W/o healing and tanking, what is there to do but kite and DPS?

This was the only one thing that you have merit in and I can agree with, but everything else.....ehhhhh. Yea, just going to stop here because I don't think we can come to terms honestly. So, agree to disagree.

[Colino]

It's more that Pagos is completely at odds with itself.

Looking at what the content is for, it's a replacement of the relic weapon quests which were a means for casual players to have a way to regularly spend x amount of time (daily or weekly) and eventually obtain a weapon that wasn't in line with raid level gear, but almost.

Now looking at Pagos. There is no way of spending a healthy, casual amount of time in there and obtain anything meaningful. Even if you spent an hour a day in there (which I would argue doesn't make you a casual player anymore) you'd really struggle to have any reward from it for a number of weeks.

[Granyala]

Though, how would you define mostly intact? Because several abilities would have to be reworked fully or they'd be outright useless in non-trinity style combat.

Care to elaborate and post a few specifics?
Any spell that does damage to the target still does the same damage whether the mob needs to be kited or tanked.
Damage mitigation skills are also valid because it may allow the soaking of some hits/mechanics, leading to less movement and better DPS.
Sure, you'd probably need to do something about the very long cast times if there are no tanks and players aren't supposed to take hits for extended periods, leading to a combat style that has to be much more mobile and on the fly.

But the core of the class could remain largely "as is".

Lets keep to the Black Mage please, because I do not know other DPS classes all that well (although melee positional attacks would probably not work on a mob that randomly twists and turns as it picks targets).

What you would need to do is ADD some survival/selfheal abilities to all classes in order to be able to compensate for at least a few mistakes.

To be perfectly frank: I get your curiosity but I don't think that you thought this through enough to have a meaningful conversation about the actual specifics of how such a game would look like. Not that it would matter, we aren't gameDEVs after all.

[Maero]

Well every new piece of content (in these cases, The Extreme fights) there are always people who voice that it should be easier and some make multiple threads of it. So I do see what OP is saying.
Those people are partially to blame for some of the nerfs or direction SE goes

[Granyala]

Those people are partially to blame for some of the nerfs or direction SE goes

I doubt that very much. Ultimately any game DEV looks at actual participation numbers. Forum feedback is usually not all that helpful.

If they see a sharp drop off or an inordinate amount of failed runs after prolonged exposure to the content, that's when they start getting suspicious.

[Fawkes]

I doubt that very much. Ultimately any game DEV looks at actual participation numbers. Forum feedback is usually not all that helpful.

If they see a sharp drop off or an inordinate amount of failed runs after prolonged exposure to the content, that's when they start getting suspicious.

Like Pagos, for example. It's clear they didn't listen to any actual feedback, and instead they likely saw that a lot of people did Anemos and got multiple weapons, so they looked at that data and said "people like this kind of grind because they did it" and "we can make it harder because people got through it somewhat quickly".

[KisaiTenshi]

Guild Wars 2 clearly demonstrated that to me that whole game tried to do MMO style combat w/o the trinity and it ended up in an ability spam zergfest.

MMORPG's have tried many things, and they have gotten simpler, and the more simple they have become, the larger their playerbase and more profitable it is.

Like I kid you not, the entire point of "mobile" games are so that you spend less than a minute on a level, and thus most are designed as puzzles (eg Angry Birds) or pull pages from old-school BBS Door games where you only had 5 minutes to play per day (such as farmville clones.) As MMORPG's edge closer to mobile games, the skill gap widens.

Early MMO's like Ultima Online, had plenty of things to keep you busy, and you were punished heavily for being lazy. You could steal from and loot other players (because you could do that in all Ultima games, and stealing was a core "fun" thing), thus players formed guilds to watch each others back and take down notorious monsters (which was a side effect of the game's AI and leveling, in which monsters also leveled up when they defeated players.)

MMORPG's seem to the only game where innovations are thrown away in order to make the game less challenging and easier to develop. Yet somehow still manage to underestimate creativity of players. FFXIV has thrown away more than it's fair share.

In a better designed MMORPG, every "real world" concept would apply to content design.

So in the real world, nobody sits around being a damage sponge. So the idea of a "tank" player doesn't come from a military role, but from the "defense" role in sports. The role of the defense is to prevent the opposing team's attackers (for this case DPS), from being able to score a goal. American Football, Soccer, Basketball, Volleyball, etc all have the offense/defense idea built into them. There is no support role in sports. Unless you count the coach and cheerleaders as players.

In a military role, the support roles are armed, but they are only armed to defend themselves, they do not engage the enemy by themselves, they are not on the frontline, that's the role of other people. If you're a doctor, and you are injured or die, you've also killed everyone else. Your role as support is to remain out of sight, and try and save people, not draw attention to yourself.

That is the problem in all competitive online games. Nobody wants to play support, and those who are forced to, play it poorly, so games keep nerfing the importance of the support role until the support role is just a weak attacker role with a mostly unused support kit, and nobody picks them, because that means their scores will be low.

Because it's a game, players do not think about support roles, their real life is never in immediate danger. They see they have a gun in their kit, and mistakenly believe are supposed to use it as much as possible. Yet they see a bandaid in their kit and know they don't need to use it because they're not bleeding yet. Players are thinking in terms of scoring points, not surviving.

[Colino]

Well every new piece of content (in these cases, The Extreme fights) there are always people who voice that it should be easier and some make multiple threads of it. So I do see what OP is saying.
Those people are partially to blame for some of the nerfs or direction SE goes

They have tons and tons of data which is far more reliable than forum threads and subjective opinions. Any nerfs/changes are done based on that primarily and MAYBE community feedback afterwards.

[Hamada]

Its not the servers, for the umpteenth time. Its peoples routes to the servers, which are controlled by their ISP's, and who they peer with.

If it was the servers, EVERYONE would have issues...

I've raided with an Aussie who lags less than some people on Comcast do.

No the biggest issue is with the netcode, don't you find it funny people do not have issues like this with other games? Some people may just say server lag or server end is the issue since it is simply easier to say and get the point across. The point is, it is SE's end be it the servers themselves or the netcode, but the net feel is playing a game from the 1980s with gerbils running on wheels to power it.