can you pls stop asking SE to do content easier?

[hynaku]

There should be both easy and hard content added. Not only hard content. Not everyone that plays can handle hard content only. Some suffer from extreme lag and maybe some is handicapped that plays to. Content needs to be fair to all those that play. Only thing about content I want is it fun and not boring.

[Rufalus]

can you pls stop asking SE to do content easier?

You cannot force other people to change their opinion but you're free to submit your own different opinion and we can discuss from there. Everyone's feedback is valid.

[Hamada]

Its not the servers, for the umpteenth time. Its peoples routes to the servers, which are controlled by their ISP's, and who they peer with.

If it was the servers, EVERYONE would have issues...

I've raided with an Aussie who lags less than some people on Comcast do.

No the biggest issue is with the netcode, don't you find it funny people do not have issues like this with other games? Some people may just say server lag or server end is the issue since it is simply easier to say and get the point across. The point is, it is SE's end be it the servers themselves or the netcode, but the net feel is playing a game from the 1980s with gerbils running on wheels to power it.

[Granyala]

To be blunt: As a healer I don't give a damn about content that I can't play as a healer.
No, going in and playing a 3 button WHM-DPS is neither the answer nor fun.

There is a reason why I play White Mage and not Black Mage, I am sure you can understand that I don't necessarily find content fun that excludes my chosen playstyle, even if this MMO is far more forgiving in that regard because one character can be all classes.

[Sigma-Astra]

To be blunt: As a healer I don't give a damn about content that I can't play as a healer.
No, going in and playing a 3 button WHM-DPS is neither the answer nor fun.

There is a reason why I play White Mage and not Black Mage, I am sure you can understand that I don't necessarily find content fun that excludes my chosen playstyle, even if this MMO is far more forgiving in that regard because one character can be all classes.

But, I never said that future 4-man trial content needed to exclude healers, you're kind of jumping the gun here and saying things I never even said that needed to happen. I just said that the idea of not strictly following the trinity could be interesting, not that we need to simplify your role even further.

[Lubu_Mykono]

But, I never said that future 4-man trial content needed to exclude healers, you're kind of jumping the gun here and saying things I never even said that needed to happen. I just said that the idea of not strictly following the trinity could be interesting, not that we need to simplify your role even further.

Don't want the trinity? Isn't that what this upcoming Eureka patch is supposed to be about, the 4,45 one? If it is I imagine it's just a potion for self heals as DPS or 50% damage reduction and increased emnity generation or something like that.

[Granyala]

But, I never said that future 4-man trial content needed to exclude healers, you're kind of jumping the gun here and saying things I never even said that needed to happen. I just said that the idea of not strictly following the trinity could be interesting, not that we need to simplify your role even further.

If you abandon the trinity, that is exactly what happens to Healers and tanks.
You cannot have it both ways.

You may like such messy gameplay, I do not. Guild Wars 2 clearly demonstrated that to me that whole game tried to do MMO style combat w/o the trinity and it ended up in an ability spam zergfest.

I don't expect a DPS player to understand this, to you there is only "added challenge" no matter what SE does. To a healer, either you let me heal and throw tons of damage out and couple that with razor thin windows of opportunity (hello Archangel) in order to challenge me or ... well 3 buttons to DPS. There is no "or". You'd have to rework the healing classes pretty hard in order to make any "or" viable.

[Sigma-Astra]

If you abandon the trinity, that is exactly what happens to Healers and tanks.
You cannot have it both ways.

You may like such messy gameplay, I do not. Guild Wars 2 clearly demonstrated that to me that whole game tried to do MMO style combat w/o the trinity and it ended up in an ability spam zergfest.

I don't expect a DPS player to understand this, to you there is only "added challenge" no matter what SE does. To a healer, either you let me heal and throw tons of damage out and couple that with razor thin windows of opportunity (hello Archangel) in order to challenge me or ... well 3 buttons to DPS. There is no "or". You'd have to rework the healing classes pretty hard in order to make any "or" viable.

You're making large and outrageous claims, generalized assumptions about what I like or may not like, and then attacking the job that I play despite the fact that I have a lvl 70 whm as well and play healer on occasions. Can you actually make a decent argument without resorting to ad hominem left and right, please?

Saying "I don't expect a DPS player to understand this" just throws all of your credibility within the debate out of the window because of blatant fear mongering as if the changes wouldn't do drastic things towards DPS as well, especially the melee jobs. A full reworking for all of the jobs would need to be done in order to make anything viable, not just healers and tanks. Since, they would just pick the best four DPS for the content and then just exclude all of the rest. Tanks and healers are already DPS jobs with just another title attached towards them.

If you think healers would suffer the most, you're being woefully naive. Every job would be changed according towards the combat style if they tried breaking the trinity and using it for different trials or stand alone content like Rath EX. I didn't ask for the entirety of the game to break the mold, just maybe try doing it for other things to see how it would work. You're assuming that, all of sudden, that I want to see the entire game drop it when I never said as such.

Using Guild Wars 2 as some kind of rebuttal doesn't make for a good argument as that's a case where they outright failed the idea and then didn't care enough to fix the balancing issues and the nightmares that came with it. They literally thought that they did a good job, which isn't the case.

There's nothing entirely wrong with breaking out of your comfort zone sometimes, seeing if it works, testing the end results with the idea, and then learning from that experience that it may or may not work. The whole point of trying new things is to see if it works, then great...if it doesn't, then don't do it again. They could definitely improve upon the kind of roles that they gave the healers in Rath EX and I'm not going to doom and gloom already that it's a lost cause. Instead of simply just being Esuna bots at that point, make it so a healer can give someone an additional potion command from their own stash if they end up not using all 3 during the fight or when a healer can and does heal someone, give them an "Energized" buff that gives a 10% damage increase or something. I'm not a fan of healers being excluded from that fight either, but little snippets like that can be tested out, and there's such a broad range of how things could be handled to make all of the roles viable and interesting outside of the usual trinity. Content excluding the trinity should always be optional so that no one is actually forced or pressured to think outside of the box when walking into that particular piece of content.

[KisaiTenshi]

Guild Wars 2 clearly demonstrated that to me that whole game tried to do MMO style combat w/o the trinity and it ended up in an ability spam zergfest.

MMORPG's have tried many things, and they have gotten simpler, and the more simple they have become, the larger their playerbase and more profitable it is.

Like I kid you not, the entire point of "mobile" games are so that you spend less than a minute on a level, and thus most are designed as puzzles (eg Angry Birds) or pull pages from old-school BBS Door games where you only had 5 minutes to play per day (such as farmville clones.) As MMORPG's edge closer to mobile games, the skill gap widens.

Early MMO's like Ultima Online, had plenty of things to keep you busy, and you were punished heavily for being lazy. You could steal from and loot other players (because you could do that in all Ultima games, and stealing was a core "fun" thing), thus players formed guilds to watch each others back and take down notorious monsters (which was a side effect of the game's AI and leveling, in which monsters also leveled up when they defeated players.)

MMORPG's seem to the only game where innovations are thrown away in order to make the game less challenging and easier to develop. Yet somehow still manage to underestimate creativity of players. FFXIV has thrown away more than it's fair share.

In a better designed MMORPG, every "real world" concept would apply to content design.

So in the real world, nobody sits around being a damage sponge. So the idea of a "tank" player doesn't come from a military role, but from the "defense" role in sports. The role of the defense is to prevent the opposing team's attackers (for this case DPS), from being able to score a goal. American Football, Soccer, Basketball, Volleyball, etc all have the offense/defense idea built into them. There is no support role in sports. Unless you count the coach and cheerleaders as players.

In a military role, the support roles are armed, but they are only armed to defend themselves, they do not engage the enemy by themselves, they are not on the frontline, that's the role of other people. If you're a doctor, and you are injured or die, you've also killed everyone else. Your role as support is to remain out of sight, and try and save people, not draw attention to yourself.

That is the problem in all competitive online games. Nobody wants to play support, and those who are forced to, play it poorly, so games keep nerfing the importance of the support role until the support role is just a weak attacker role with a mostly unused support kit, and nobody picks them, because that means their scores will be low.

Because it's a game, players do not think about support roles, their real life is never in immediate danger. They see they have a gun in their kit, and mistakenly believe are supposed to use it as much as possible. Yet they see a bandaid in their kit and know they don't need to use it because they're not bleeding yet. Players are thinking in terms of scoring points, not surviving.

[Granyala]

Players are thinking in terms of scoring points, not surviving.

Because games are designed that way. You need maximum DPS in order to survive (raid enrages), you need DPS to get virtually anything done in the open world, you even need DPS in PvP.

Damage done is the driving engine of the entire RPG gaming world. You can't even experience story w/o facerolling a ton of boring quest mobs.

So, don't blame the players for finding support roles "meh" to play, esp when said support roles are actually penalized by inherently lower DPS compared to the other roles in non instanced content.