Discussion on tanking

[Joven]

Which is why you non-verbally communicate to your newbie tank that your group can handle more mobs.

Why does it always have to be "non-verbal"? Is it really so hard to put into Party Chat: "hey, I think we can handle more on the next pull"?

No, you got it backwards here. Tank keeps enemy attention and positions everything so others can do their own jobs comfortably, that's the core of the role. The run's pace is set by the entire party and what they can handle, not tank's desire to either speedrun or skip around and pick flowers. And yes, that also means not AoE pulling when you realize the group isn't up to snuff.

Every dungeon I've ever run went fast or slow depending on the tank. I've seen tanks try to speed run even though they had no idea what they were doing and I've seen tanks take it slow even though they could hold all the hate in the world. That's what I mean by the tank sets the pace. A bad tank can set back a run a lot worse than bad DPS.

If you're fine with people doing bare minimum and never learning anything that's your business. I would rather take the chance to teach them something and help them become a better tank. In fact part of learning for me back when I started, was when somebody pulled ahead of me and I realized we could handle that extra pack just fine.

Telling newbies that they're the ones that "set the pace" and "if people don't adjust to you just let them die" or other crap might seem "nice" to you, but in reality is doing them disservice. Sometimes people will want to do things different than you want them, and you can either throw a useless fit or try to adjust and do your job best you can and learn from the experience.

People learn differently. Just because you're fine with someone running ahead and pulling for you doesn't mean everyone is. Personally I watch every tank I follow to see how they do it and every one has a different way of doing things. This whole "let's throw everyone into the deep end and let them figure it out for themselves instead of taking some time to actually teach them" mentality is why I don't even attempt raid content.

[Strykr512]

I don't mind I guess a DPS pulling entirely. Like if a black mage pulls a group but they are so good that even if they were to "tank" an enemy or 2, they can burn them down so fast that they don't take much damage. My real issue is the majority of DPS roles who decide to pull, gain the aggro for a sec then run around like an idiot making it really difficult to regain aggro. Then because they didn't do much to gain aggro, I have the healer trying to heal the tank AND the DPS who pulled, therefore gaining more aggro and pulling an enemy or 2, so then I also have to rush and try and grab them too. In my personal case, the healer isn't too bad cuz most of the time my healer is my girlfriend who's sitting right next to me. But if I run solo, the healer will also run around like an idiot making things twice as hard. This is why I feel that the tank should be the one who pulls. And like what's been being said this whole time, if the group thinks tank can pull bigger, just put it in chat. Communicate. That way if the tank feels comfortable he can and communicate that, or if he doesn't feel comfortable he can communicate that as well. This whole mindset of "I'm.a team player but tank needs to suck it up" is very contradictory to all arguments. Communication would basically fix most issues like this I think.

[Canadane]

For the majority of the time you WILL be the one that pulls.
It's not extremely common to see DPS pull unless you are unnaturally slow at your pulls. THen you may see it more often.

If you're taking what's considered to be an acceptable pace, then you'd only see it if a player needs to keep their stacks, and they'd likely do it because they're rather skilled and know how to handle it, or accidentally and they derp around and run in a panic. Again, you won't see it very often. Accidents happen and higher skilled players are few and far between in roulettes.

[aqskerorokero]

Dps jobs have a hp bar too, if they can run fast and pull, then mobs will be dead before killing them, don't bother. Beside ppl love the "high risk high reward", want to speed run? then risk.... if you are keeping mobs packed together everything will be ok.

[Hazmick]

Usually if the healer says "Can we pull more/go faster" then I'll oblige, but if a DPS just dashes ahead then I won't go out of my way to help them. I'm not a slow tank, but I'm absolutely going to take it at my own pace. I also oblige if someone asks to take it slower because they're new/inexperienced with their job. We all have to help each other enjoy the content.

[Fytayn]

...If you're taking what's considered to be an acceptable pace, then you'd only see it if a player needs to keep their stacks, and they'd likely do it because they're rather skilled and know how to handle it, or accidentally and they derp around and run in a panic...

You're making the assumption here that this DPS is competent at playing in a group. Some players only comprehend how their Job plays when solo so they are trying to keep stacks/mechanics up without understanding how Tanking and Healing work; they are doing it intentionally but idiotically. Others might be used to a certain pace because they usually run with skilled and well-geared Tanks and Healers; they are also doing it intentionally but not adjusting to their group.

And that's assuming the DPS isn't having difficulty playing their Job. I've had DPS trying to pull more and more, or complaining about pacing, when the damage output of the party isn't high enough to support it. My suspicion is that these players are used to the pace they can keep as good Tanks or Healers but can't play their DPS very well. Sometimes the DPS or Healer are simply under-geared and pulling large or fast isn't a good idea. Alternately I've had a two Monk party (or equivalent) ask to pull large groups when the AoE damage output is not enough to justify it. That's less a lack of skill and more of a problem with understanding the difference between a Job's single-target and AoE damage output.

Going back to the top: no, I would not just let them die. I'd use that "communication" some people are demanding to tell them to stop in party chat, maybe even explaining why, and offering to let the DPS or Healer to give me a reason otherwise. This is done quickly while pulling a group because it shouldn't need more than two messages per party member. If they have a good reason I'll try things their way. If there's no good points raised, not "go faster" or "my friends are faster than this", I'll expect them to follow my pacing. After that I will let them die if they pull because they gave me no reason to change pace. They were warned.

[marich7]

I’ve been tanking for the last two months since I’ve returned to the game and it’s really fun. I wish I had done so sooner. Communication is all but nonexistent compared to when I first started playing and impatience is extremely annoying and a bit oxymoronic in an rpg imo, but I try not to let those things stop me from enjoying my experience, and I focus on playing the role as intended. That’s my advice. Focus on playing the role as intended. If the dps wants to “help” let em. Just practice snatching enmity from em at the last second. It’s fun. Just take your time, learn to play the role and learn the dung for next time.

[Megguido]

Letting a DPS die because they pulled one mob ahead of you is a bit harsh. Better ask them to stop, then if they don't care about doing the tank's job, let them do the tank job and turn DPS stance on. But now imagine you're a close to BiS DPS, heavily outgearing the dungeon (ilvl 330 is required for the Compass, guess what happens if you go in at ilvl 370) and just doing the daily roulette to cap tomes. A BLM or SMN at ilvl 370 litterally melts the packs, and it's just frustrating to have AoEs that powerful when the tank only picks up mobs one by one.

Also, it kinda depends on the tank, but a DPS won't just die because you decide it. The healer can keep him alive or not. It can be hard in leveling dungeons (non-tanks will have a hard time tanking Bardam's for example), but in lvl 70 dungeon an overgeared DPS can easily tank everything.

In the end, it boils down to communication. DPS can spend 5 seconds to write "can you pull more please ?", or tank "my gear is shit, don't wanna pull too much" so we avoid silly mistakes, and it makes it smoother for everyone.

Everyone wants to pull wall-to-wall ? Then they might be ready to AoE DPS.
Healer's not confident enough to keep you alive ? Pull less, or manage your cooldowns better (e.g. Hallowed Ground on a big pull is always nice !)

[Aana]

Two sides of the coin. If DPS are pulling in front of you once in a blue moon, whatever. It happens. If they do it once no biggie. If they keep doing it ask them to stop. If they dont, they can enjoy the floor.

However, if this situation happens to you on a regular basis, then you might need to consider a look in the mirror. Are you are just moving excessively slowly? Blowing your entire CD suite for a lame set of trash mobs then waiting for them before pulling?

If DPS seem to ALWAYS be pulling then you are probably just being really, really slow. If it happens once in a blue moon, then you are fine and just got a randomly impatient player. Just make sure you arent the one holding the group up.

[TouchandFeel]

If DPS seem to ALWAYS be pulling then you are probably just being really, really slow ... Just make sure you arent the one holding the group up.

To expand on this, I have ended up in DF groups with tanks that would literally just stop and wait upwards of 10 to 15 seconds before pulling every single individual group of mobs. I have had tanks that do this and spend the wait time slowly marking every single mob in the group first. I've even had tanks that sit and wait AND then do a countdown or ready check before going ... for ... every ... single ... pull.

While I didn't jump ahead and start pulling, I definitely let them know that they could just pull and that what they were doing was excessive and greatly slowing down the run.
While some where receptive, many were extremely stubborn and convinced they knew what they were doing and that it was fine.

Please, please, please don't be one of those tanks.