Healers, thoughts on the dual DPS tanks?

[Mnemyx]

Recently, I'm finding that a lot of tanks are staying in their DPS stance 100%. I guess I get it, but I find these runs are much more annoying than if one stayed in Tank stance and stance danced when possible. A lot of my gripe comes from:

1.) Not being told beforehand, or worse, one will say they're MT but switch soon after
2.) People aren't always amazing at dodging so now I'm pressed on time to spread heals when I wouldn't be otherwise
3.) Their gear is just too low to do this comfortably
4.) Not knowing right away who ends up taking the tankbuster
5.) After a lull or break in the fight, I'm going to end up pulling aggro and now have to schedule my Lucid Dreaming for their sake (esp. when I'm WHM)
6.) Some CDs are just not as effective at mitigating damage unless in Tank stance (I'm looking at you WARs)

I wonder if I'm just being whiny, so I'm curious to hear you guys's thoughts on it?

Edit: Okay, other than addressing me - do you hate or like it when they do it? Preferences?

Edit 2: I also didn't realize this was the norm and am now painfully aware how much of a casual healer I am. I'll go back to my rock - and I am really thankful for the corrections, even if I disagree on some points!

[Rongway]

4.) Not knowing right away who ends up taking the tankbuster

Is this one a real issue though? Aside from the party list telling you who's 1/A and who's 2-8, the target of target HUD element shows who's going to get hit, and is a valid entity for mouseovers. If hard targeting, acquire the main tank by doing Target Nearest Enemy -> Target the Target of Your Current Target (Assist Target). These keybinds should both be simple keystrokes close to home like [T] and [G]. If using mouseover heals, you can just put it on the target of target health bar.

[HyoMinPark]

A tank saying they’re going to main-tank, and then swapping to their DPS stance after establishing aggro doesn’t make them “not the main tank” anymore—if the boss is still pummeling on them, they’re still the main tank regardless of the stance they are in. You can easily see who has aggro by either the party list (when the boss is targeted, the person with highest enmity will have “A” beneath their job icon) or by looking at the bosses target bar (you can see this also when you have the boss targeted—there is a “—>” element that points to the name of the party member they are currently wailing on). So I don’t really understand your first gripe. Likewise, they will be the ones you focus on healing for tankbusters. The only way I can understand those complaints are if aggro is flip-flopping between the tanks.

Do know that there are instances where tanks will be forced to swap after a buster, though, so you will have to adjust to that (e.g., Tsukuyomi Extreme—a tank swap is necessary after her Torment Unto Death buster because of the magic vulnerability she gives the MT). You can determine who is the new MT by the same methods listed above (“A” or the boss’ target “—>” HUD element).

For your fifth complaint, Defiance only grants you +25% HP while giving a +20% healing boost and reducing the damage the WAR deals by 20%; it doesn’t have a built-in damage mitigation to it like Shield Oath and Grit. Vengeance, Rampart, and Raw Intuition all work just the same in Defiance as they do in Deliverance; it’s not “more effective” in one or the other, unless you are just talking about having the extra HP cushion. In which case, they still don’t mitigate any more or less in terms of damage taken. Just the HP loss seems less because Defiance boosts a WAR’s total HP pool.

[Mnemyx]

...

Seeing those HUD elements require having the target targeted which isn't always the case when you're targeting others to heal. Even the mouse over suggestion still requires intermediate clicking.

So yea, I can re-assign my binds to work that in and will do since I don't play with a regular keyboard and T/G keystrokes are actually nowhere near, but that doesn't make my gripe any less of one considering that is the literal definition of a gripe.

...

Thank you for the breakdown on the cooldowns (sincerely). And yea, I have had aggro flip flop on at least 50% of these runs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

1.) Not being told beforehand, or worse, one will say they're MT but switch soon after

This is standard practice for all tanks. Ideally, you want to drop tank stance once you've established enough of an aggro lead. Assuming proper swaps and/or Shirk usage, there is no benefit whatsoever using tank stance unless things begin falling apart. Mechanics even at the Savage level simply aren't threatening enough to warrant "stance swapping." Hence why tanks prioritize damage.

2.) People aren't always amazing at dodging so now I'm pressed on time to spread heals when I wouldn't be otherwise

You shouldn't have any issues healing other players if the tank utilize proper CD management. If DPS continuously take avoidable damage, the blame remains on them and one shouldn't be demanding the tank adjust because someone else refuses to do mechanics.

3.) Their gear is just too low to do this comfortably

Gear disparity generally impacts aggro more than incoming damage, assuming the tanks know how to mitigate. Tide Pod will only hurt slightly more if I'm in i350 gear attempting Ridorana compared to i370. I will, however, need to do more aggro management if the DPS are good.

4.) Not knowing right away who ends up taking the tankbuster

This should never be an issue. Whoever the boss targets is, for all intents and purposes, the "main tank."

5.) After a lull or break in the fight, I'm going to end up pulling aggro and now have to schedule my Lucid Dreaming for their sake (esp. when I'm WHM)

You should be doing this. Healers are just as responsible for their own aggro management as tanks. You want to use Lucid early to get it on cooldown, thus allowing more uses throughout the encounter or to cut your enmity. The only instance where a tank needs to go back into tank stance during a phase transition is if aggro resets, though Warrior's tend to do so because Unchained offsets the penalty by a fair margin.

6.) Some CDs are just not as effective at mitigating damage unless in Tank stance (I'm looking at you WARs)

There is not a single tank buster in the entire game where tank stance is required to survive. Ultimate notwithstanding. You will always have either a CD or enough party mitigation to counteract the incoming damage, unless the tank does not know how to manage their CDs. In such a scenario, they're either inexperienced or bad. Warrior, in particular, has a fantastic suite with Vengeance, Rampart, Thrill, Raw and Holmgang. Keep in mind, as HyoMin said, Defiance only increases their HP, but does not reduce the incoming damage.

[HyoMinPark]

Thank you for the breakdown on the cooldowns (sincerely). And yea, I have had aggro flip flop on at least 50% of these runs.

You are welcome.

If aggro is flip-flopping, then it really depends on the “why” as to what should be done—

1. If both tanks are in DPS stance, but the OT is using his enmity combo— he’s going to rip from a tank that is not in stance and not spamming their enmity combo. In this scenario, I would tell the OT to either stop using their enmity combo (it’s inefficient anyways, regardless of being the MT or OT), or tell them to be the MT instead.
2. If both tanks are in DPS stance, but the OT keeps ripping hate while not spamming his enmity combo— this could be a gear discrepancy thing, or a rotation thing depending on what the MT is doing. It may be best to have the OT main-tank if this continues to be an issue.
3. If the MT is in tank stance, and the OT is in DPS stance, but the OT keeps ripping hate— more than likely a gear discrepancy, as the enmity multipliers from being in tank stance are ridiculous enough that an OT spamming their aggro combo in DPS stance won’t rip from an equally geared tank in his tank stance. But, again, it depends on what the MT is doing rotation-wise. If they are semi-AFK, then the OT will eventually rip regardless of the combo they’re using (or a DPS will).
4. Both tanks are, for some reason, in tank stance— tell one of them to decide who is going to MT and stop having a dick-measuring contest. I have no patience for tanks like this. It hasn’t happened often in my personal experience, but it does happen.
5. If the MT pulled in tank stance, switched to DPS stance after establishing hate, but the OT has turned on his tank stance after the pull— tell the OT to turn off his tank stance/go into his DPS stance, or, if he wanted to main-tank, he should have pulled the boss. This also happens sometimes, and it is another situation I don’t have much patience for.

Do know that sometimes enmity will briefly switch when tanks are Provoke-Shirking— the OT momentarily Provokes to gain the MT’s threat plus 1 point of enmity, and then immediately Shirks the MT to give them 25% of that new enmity. This is a common tactic in 8-mans that tanks use to make it easier for them to hold threat while in their DPS stances, since tank stance reduces their personal damage. Any flip-flop caused by this should be ignored, as it is actually decent play.

With regards to Lucid Dreaming, on WHM specifically, you are going to generate a lot of threat from burst healing because of the way WHM is designed compared to the other two healers—
—AST sects have built in enmity reduction, and its burst heal (Earthly Star) is counted as a “pet”, which has a separate enmity table;
—SCH’s healing is split between their faerie, and pets have separate enmity tables from the SCH.

WHM generally will not run into MP problems outside of scenarios where they are forced to raise a lot of players, or they are generally just overhealing a lot with no regard for MP conservation (i.e., Medica II/Cure III spamming), so I personally tend to use my Lucid Dreaming as an enmity management tool—though I also try to use HoTs for healing as much as possible instead of relying on several single-target Cure/Cure II spells. However, I do think that WHMs need another way of managing their enmity outside of a resource tool (I have the same complaint with regards to Refresh/Tactician); someone once suggested tying an enmity dump to Plenary Indulgence, which I found to be an interesting idea.

[Brightamethyst]

3.) Their gear is just too low to do this comfortably

Kind of unrelated, but in general this one of my biggest pet peeves. Just because you saw somebody do something once doesn't mean YOU can do it in your crappy gear (big pulls, odd strats, etc.)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Edit: Okay, other than addressing me - do you hate or like it when they do it? Preferences?

Edit 2: I also didn't realize this was the norm and am now painfully aware how much of a casual healer I am. I'll go back to my rock - and I am really thankful for the corrections, even if I disagree on some points!

I would prefer more emphasis on outgoing damage, which would encourage more defensive play. Presently, tank stance and aggro combo abilities border on a waste since they're so infrequently used. It's also why I believe the aggro combos will be pruned come 5.0 and simply turning on tank stance will give you enmity.

That all said, no need to hide away. There's nothing wrong with being inexperienced. At least you took the time to ask questions. If you aim to improve as a healer and challenge harder content, that's the first step. Contrary to popular belief, the raid community is generally very open to people wanting to improve their play.

[HyoMinPark]

Edit: Okay, other than addressing me - do you hate or like it when they do it? Preferences?

Depends on the circumstances— I don’t care if tanks go into their DPS stance so long as they rotate cooldowns and maintain aggro. And there aren’t any dick-measuring contests going on between co-tanks. I’ve never really cared, because this was already becoming a thing back when I started playing healers (Patch 3.2 — tanks in DPS stance became a thing around Gordias).

Edit 2: I also didn't realize this was the norm and am now painfully aware how much of a casual healer I am. I'll go back to my rock - and I am really thankful for the corrections, even if I disagree on some points!

I wouldn’t really call this thread a mistake. You had questions/concerns, and you ended up learning something from it. That’s not a mistake. Nor is there anything wrong with being a “casual” healer. You’re learning the way people tend to do things in the game, especially at the higher levels of content (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). Granted, it takes more than just knowing the theory to execute everything properly.

[Risvertasashi]

a lot of tanks are staying in their DPS stance 100%. I guess I get it, but I find these runs are much more annoying than if one stayed in Tank stance and stance danced when possible.

It's the logical conclusion. Now a good tank will realize when they're party isn't suited for it (low gear, new players, people just mess up and die straining the healers, etc), but... yeah. And of course, good ones will use CDs for more than just tankbusters when doing this. But the mediocre ones won't, so it falls on the healers' shoulders.

All hail FFlogs.

They want that blue/purple/orange parse as much as anyone else.

You should be doing this. Healers are just as responsible for their own aggro management as tanks.

Of course... a number of tanks don't seem to realize that once Lucid is on cooldown, there's nothing more healers can do to dump aggro.