Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Nandina]

Don't sit here and try to portray the OP as the victim - she dug herself in that hole and seemingly moved on to different pastures when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to bring herself out of this hole - something that you haven't figured out as of yet.

KaivaC, darling. . . I have something called a life. I haven't dug myself into any hole, I still 100% stand by everything I've stated, and will continue to. However I'm also not going to argue the same points repeatedly.

With that being said, the thread was actually getting somewhere finally until things for whatever reason took a shift again. But I can't help but find it funny that many of you are saying that no one has a problem with the suggestions that could be added to the character customization, but when people talk about the suggestions, you go on to say why those suggestions can't be implemented because "this is a fantasy game" or "there are no real life equivalents to Africa." Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

I already posted four videos referencing what I'm referring to as I was told that the burden of proof was on me, yet very few people actually mentioned those videos.

[Melichoir]

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

Willfully construing your oppositions positions as bigoted or racist does not garner favor among the very people you are trying to persuade.

And INB4 "Oh but I dont care if I persuade them!"

Then all youre attempting to do is preach to the choir if your whole point is to have a discussion and expect everyone to agree with you. Im assuming you didnt make that thread for the purpose of hearing your own voice and everyone applauding you, but rather to express your view and either demonstrate or convince others of your view. You know, what typical forum style conversations are built upon.

So yeah, resorting to proclaiming people dont want 'x' while implying racism and bigotry isnt serving your point, and comes across more as "Imma throw up my arms and just call you all names cause Im tired of the discussion."

[Nandina]

Willfully construing your oppositions positions as bigoted or racist does not garner favor among the very people you are trying to persuade.

And INB4 "Oh but I dont care if I persuade them!"

Then all youre attempting to do is preach to the choir if your whole point is to have a discussion and expect everyone to agree with you. Im assuming you didnt make that thread for the purpose of hearing your own voice and everyone applauding you, but rather to express your view and either demonstrate or convince others of your view. You know, what typical forum style conversations are built upon.

So yeah, resorting to proclaiming people dont want 'x' while implying racism and bigotry isnt serving your point, and comes across more as "Imma throw up my arms and just call you all names cause Im tired of the discussion."

The question was really asked to SE, tbh. I don't care whether people agree or not, there have been people who disagreed and we're cool. I've had very productive dialogues with those people, but those people were consistent in their argument. They didn't accuse me of a stupid "race war", being divisive, they didn't argue semantics, or any of that other BS, which is why my responses to them are markedly nicer. Notice it's really only the same group of people doing that.

[Melichoir]

The question was really asked to SE, tbh. I don't care whether people agree or not, there have been people who disagreed and we're cool. I've had very productive dialogues with those people, but those people were consistent in their argument. They didn't accuse me of a stupid "race war", being divisive, they didn't argue semantics, or any of that other BS, which is why my responses to them are markedly nicer. Notice it's really only the same group of people doing that.

This actually complicates things for you, not clarifies. Because based on the things you stated in your opener, as well as how you phrased them, it comes across as accusatory and with intent to inflame SE. So if your question was directed at SE, why would you phrase it and engage it the way you did? This actually supports my position: Construing your opposition as bigoted or racist isnt helpful in persuading them. If your question is directed at SE, creating a title named "Character-Creation-Has-A-Race-Problem" and then writing things like "I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game" is going to be seen by even the most moderate of Devs as inflammatory and divisive. Was this your intent?

Let me rephrase this: If you had a problem with a super market chain and the food they provide, do you go to their management and say "Hey, I noticed you guys dont carry this but I think this would be greatly appreciated." or do you say "Hey! This supermarket has a race problem. They dont have food for my black and brown friends, and theyre paying customers too!"

One brings it up about what owuld make the market better as a helpful suggestion, the other makes it a racial issue and implies bigotry and discrimination. Surely you dont think the latter is the ideal approach?

[Nandina]

This actually complicates things for you, not clarifies. Because based on the things you stated in your opener, as well as how you phrased them, it comes across as accusatory and with intent to inflame SE. So if your question was directed at SE, why would you phrase it and engage it the way you did? This actually supports my position: Construing your opposition as bigoted or racist isnt helpful in persuading them. If your question is directed at SE, creating a title named "Character-Creation-Has-A-Race-Problem" and then writing things like "I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game" is going to be seen by even the most moderate of Devs as inflammatory and divisive. Was this your intent?

Let me rephrase this: If you had a problem with a super market chain and the food they provide, do you go to their management and say "Hey, I noticed you guys dont carry this but I think this would be greatly appreciated." or do you say "Hey! This supermarket has a race problem. They dont have food for my black and brown friends, and theyre paying customers too!"

One brings it up about what owuld make the market better as a helpful suggestion, the other makes it a racial issue and implies bigotry and discrimination. Surely you dont think the latter is the ideal approach?

My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D. I feel the Hyur race has a problem because they're a human equivalent, but yet weren't diverse enough. And in previous pages we've already acknowledged that people have a problem with the way I phrased my words. In the previous pages I also clarified further and gave examples. At that point everything revolving around how I said it, and not the main topic, was BS. I'm not responsible for anyone's emotions. I'm responsible for my emotions; just as you're responsible for yours. If there was a misunderstanding of the intent, all they had to do is exactly what you did, and ask me, lol. There's no fuss. No argument. Nothing. Does this clarify things further or is there still a misunderstanding?

[Emstidor]

My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D.

You don't speak for me or any other person of color except yourself.

[Melichoir]

My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D. I feel the Hyur race has a problem because they're a human equivalent, but yet weren't diverse enough. And in previous pages we've already acknowledged that people have a problem with the way I phrased my words. In the previous pages I also clarified further and gave examples. At that point everything revolving around how I said it, and not the main topic, was BS. I'm not responsible for anyone's emotions. I'm responsible for my emotions; just as you're responsible for yours. If there was a misunderstanding of the intent, all they had to do is exactly what you did, and ask me, lol. There's no fuss. No argument. Nothing. Does this clarify things further or is there still a misunderstanding?

I dont think that SE thinks there are no brown and black players playing the game, and I would imagine you would concede that too. So if that was youre thinking, its a bit patronizing that you have to 'inform' them of that fact. Just saying.

From here, your post Im quoting seems to acknowledge to some extent that how you phrased things was a problem. So why do you resort to to lowkey assumptions and accusations on detractors? I mean, you do understand that casting aspersions doesnt help your position when you are engaging with your detractors. You use inflammatory language at teh initial post, which gets a lot of people riled. You acknowledge "Hey, maybe thats an issue" then you go back to using it. So, the question is simple. Am I giving you to much credit here? Do you understand fully that using inflammatory language and casting aspersions is pretty much isnt helping you, either in making suggestions to SE or engaging with your detractors?

Im gonna make this a clear point too: Even if your initial intent was to pose a question towards SE, it is in your own best interests to get as many people on your side of the issue, so that the request appears more genuine to SE. If a decent segment of hte player base supports your request, theyre more likely to react to it. So casting aspersions and the like against your detractors, using language that is prone to cause flaming and heated dialogue, and the like isnt in the interest of your goals. 'Cause the greatest irony of this entire damn thread is simple: People want more customization. No one here is seriously arguing against it. What they have issue is how you came to the conclusion the game needs and then casting it as a racial issue in your opener. Whether it is or not, being smart enough to know that "Hey, if I phrase this like this, its going to cause more issues and stall out what I want to see in the game."

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

And there I thought this thread wasn't about racism or discrimination yet now we have you openly accusing nearly every dissenting opinion of only having said opinion because discrimination. You really are a Tumblr meme.

I'll defer to my preceding post several pages back.

"the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white."
"the character creator severely lacks in this game. Could we see improvements—perhaps fuller lips or larger noses? They really lack a variety in the presets."

I wonder how the conversation would have went had the second option been the OP's initial post~

One of those quotes promotes discussion on actual game features. The other prompted a race war—one you've only proven to have wanted in the first place, otherwise you wouldn't be now accusing people of bigotry.

[Raou]

I'm still wondering what mental gymnastics y'all were doing to get RACE WAR out of the OP, cuz that's some major asspulling going on there.

[Nandina]

I'm still wondering what mental gymnastics y'all were doing to get RACE WAR out of the OP, cuz that's some major asspulling going on there.

Chile. . . I can't with some of these people here. Notice it's the same couple of people. I just wanna talk about more lips, noses, and hairstyles, and fixing that upper part of the skin color box. No one still said anything about the videos I posted demonstrating what I meant.