Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Lunaxia]

??

You have misunderstood me. I'm not saying FFXIV's afterlife has borrowed from Christianity, but in fact the opposite. The game is referencing it without any context. It's IRL iconography in-game which supposedly has "no place" there. You're also glossing over the direct mention of Taoism.

The halo depicted is in line with the Western image of angels derived from Christianity. The one Buddha is often depicted with is quite different.

[HyoMinPark]

You have misunderstood me. I'm not saying FFXIV's afterlife has borrowed from Christianity, but in fact the opposite. The game is referencing it without any context. It's IRL iconography in-game which supposedly has "no place" there. You're also glossing over the direct mention of Taoism.

Saying the opposite would be saying that Christianity borrowed from FFXIV’s afterlife. Considering that makes zero sense...

Referencing the afterlife in any form of media is referencing an archetype. As are all the other references you have tossed out (good versus evil; light versus dark; angels and demons, and devils and gods). Last I checked, there wasn’t a ban on borrowing common archetypes and using them in any form of media. That doesn’t make anything exclusive either.

All I was doing was pointing out how misinformed it is on your part to assume that all of the above described are inherent to Christianity. They’re so commonly found in other religions and cultures that they have evolved into literary archetypes.

By all means, show me proof how the Taoist glamour is representative of Taoism. If anything, it’s representative of a type of Chinese dress; not of the religion.

The halo depicted is in line with the Western image of angels derived from Christianity. The one Buddha is often depicted with is quite different.

They’re still all classified as halos. Christianity doesn’t have an exclusive claim on halos, just like it doesn’t have an exclusive claim on angels and demons; and the ones commonly found behind Jesus aren’t at all like the one depicted in the Angelic Attire glamour.

What on earth happened again with this thread, come on guys....I thought we fixed some issues by now.

It was fine for at least a little while until someone else came up and started crying about discrimination...

[Lunaxia]

tangent extraordinaire

The opposite is it hasn't borrowed from it at all. There is no link or connection made. It's a lone IRL reference with no FFXIV connection stuck in the middle of the game.

That particular depiction of an angel and devil is derived from Christianity. I'd thought that a given, but pedantry is the theme today apparently.

Are you joking? Taoism is the name of the religion. It is called a Taoist shirt, even fashioned in a similar style to Taoism robes worn in real life. It's not a Hingan shirt. It's not a Doman shirt. It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

But it's still derived from Western imagery taken from Christianity. That was the image they chose. There's also the matter of the feathery white wings and long robes. It's a Western, Christian-inspired depiction with no relation to the FFXIV canon.

[HyoMinPark]

The opposite is it hasn't borrowed from it at all. There is no link or connection made. It's a lone IRL reference with no FFXIV connection stuck in the middle of the game.

That particular depiction of an angel and devil is derived from Christianity. I'd thought that a given, but pedantry is the theme today apparently.

Angels having white wings and devils having black wings is still an archetype. As is everything else you said (black versus white isn’t even a Christian concept). I would highly suggest you read up on what archetypes are.

Are you joking? Taoism is the name of the religion. It is called a Taoist shirt, even fashioned in a similar style to Taoism robes worn in real life. It's not a Hingan shirt. It's not a Doman shirt. It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

Ah, yes, the “Taoist” reference in the Taoist Shirt or Taoist Slops tells me all about living in harmony with the Tao. /s

Using “Taoist” in the description doesn’t make it descritive of a religion. It doesn’t, in any shape or form, talk about the ideology of it. It’s representative of a Chinese style of dress; that says nothing about the actual religion. Again, the Taoist glamour is representative of a Chinese style of dress; not of an actual religion. Closest you can get is saying it represents a part of Chinese culture.

But it's still derived from Western imagery taken from Christianity. That was the image they chose. There's also the matter of the feathery white wings and long robes. It's a Western, Christian-inspired depiction with no relation to the FFXIV canon.

I guess we’re just going to ignore all those Western depictions of the halo behind Jesus’ head as a solid circle of light, not a skinny ring above his head... Funny that Buddha has similar halos depicted behind his head...



My point still stands: glamours don’t represent religions. You saying they do is a reach. I gave you way too much credit in my original response to Iscah.

[Lunaxia]

brick wall

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. You misunderstood my original point and you're misunderstanding me now. The point is they mean nothing in the FFXIV canon. They're not representative, they're meaningless references taken from IRL. The point against more ethnic features was that this is a fantasy game that shouldn't borrow from IRL. This is direct borrowing from IRL with no lore or explanation behind it that was seen as perfectly acceptable.

And they didn't choose that halo, though. They chose the famous Western depiction associated with Christianity, along with robes and wings.

[HyoMinPark]

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. You misunderstood my original point and you're misunderstanding me now. The point is they mean nothing in the FFXIV canon. They're not representative, they're meaningless references taken from IRL. The point against more ethnic features was that this is a fantasy game that shouldn't borrow from IRL. This is direct borrowing from IRL with no lore or explanation behind it that was seen as perfectly acceptable.

I’m not even referencing your argument about race; I’m just responding to your misinformed stance on three sets of glamour being representative of entire religions. How am I misunderstanding your original statement about religious representation in this game when you said:

There are even references to real world religions in this game.

And when asked what you meant by religious references:

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

You responded as such:

Taoism, from the glamour. Angels and devils, Christianity.

The Taoist glamour isn’t representative of Taoism. Angels and devils is a common literary archetype that isn’t just present in Christianity. Borrowing archetypes that don’t follow a single strict religion is common in all forms of media.

My point was you’re reaching by saying glamour options represent religions. And that I gave you way too much credit when I cited actual loose real-life religious/mythological/folklore references made in FFXIV:

I’m guessing they’re referring to Ishgard’s religion as an approximation of Catholicism? Or the talk of a lot of Domans of the “Kami”, which could refer to Japanese Shintoism. That’s the only references I can make.

Or they’re referring to the names of certain primals, since a lot of them derive their names from real-life mythology or folklore, though their in-game counterpart can either be similar to real life, or borrowing just the name with regards to likeness; it varies— Lakshmi is an actual Hindu goddess (the goddess of wealth, fortune, and prosperity). Susano-o, Tsukuyomi, and the Four Lords all also have ties to Japanese mythology/folklore: The first two are part of the Kojiki, a compilation of Japanese origin myths; and the Four Lords originally come from Chinese mythology as gods denoted by constellations, but also have representation/presence in Japanese mythology.

Those aren’t the only ones— a quick search will show you that a lot of the primals have real-world counterparts in various different mythologies: Ifrit has Middle Eastern references, Leviathan has references in the Hebrew Bible, Garuda has references in Hinduism and Buddhism.

[Lunaxia]

Very nice ad hominem. You’re losing an argument, so you turn to attacking your opponent instead?

See it how you will. "Losing." You do really have an unhealthy obsession with this, don't you?

You've completely misunderstood my original point and you've been repeating it back at me despite my telling you otherwise. Referencing something and representing something are not the same thing. You accuse me of "prolonging" things but you've held onto this inane tangent for several pages, to what end, I don't even know.

[MoroMurasaki]

It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

These are the kind of people that would cry cultural appropriation if they actually got their way and likely the same ones who did complain about the New World stuff.

Can a mod close this thing? It's just a place to breed stupidity at this point.