Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[MoroMurasaki]

They were just examples showing what "real life"/ non-fantasy and other frivolous features have been more popularly requested despite the prevailing arguing being "but this is a fantasy game!"

To be quite honest, I couldn't care less what tone OP said it in, how they should have said it or who was offended by it. People would still be using the same ridiculous excuses, just with slightly less cattiness.

Actually, probably the same amount. It is the OF, after all.

As a general side note, it's worth remembering racism isn't always intentional or hateful. Sometimes it's merely ignorance.

Trust me if I could work some magical logic to not feel compelled to interact with you I would - it's always a chore. I would clean ten litterboxes a day if it kept this poop off the forums.

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

I would absolutely love for anyone to point out where there is any racism in this thread. Not including every race is not racist just like not including a bunch of gay characters isn't homophobic or not including fat characters isn't some slight to overweight people. It's SE's game, we just play in it and if their story has Hyur looking more or less white that's fine.

Valuing other character customization features over the ones proposed by the OP also isn't racist. Personally this set of character customization options isn't going to do much for me so it isn't at the top of my list where as detatching the Au Ra faces from the horns would be great to me as someone who almost exclusively plays Au Ra. To expect me to be cheering someone on irrespective of their absolutely shoddy pitch just because they asked for yet another character customization addition is just dumb.

As I said multiple times before (not that I ever expect you specifically to be the least bit informed of course) if the OP had made their pitch without the "this is racist" parts I would have done the same thing I usually do with these threads and left a "cool buddy, good luck, looks nice!" and called it a day. My reservations initially were 100% with their attitude as were many others but I guess reading is hard.

So no, the OP and those people arguing these changes were necessary or it was racially insensitive are to blame for the cattiness just like you are here for perpetuating that same nonsense. If you truly cared about just getting these features and not about virtue signally you would just ask for them instead of doing so while calling SE racist for not having them.

I don't see the Viera thread screeching about representation and it looks like they might actually get their wish. Maybe take a page from their books.

[Lunaxia]

Trust me if I could work some magical logic to not feel compelled to interact with you I would

Or perhaps just exert some measure of control over the huge chip on your shoulder you have about me and your insatiable need to win internet arguments. There is nothing compelling you to respond to me beyond your own ego.

[snip]

LOL, I was waiting for the inevitable "pull up the Google dictionary definition of racism" post. OF never disappoints.

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.

It's SE's game, we just play in it and if their story has Hyur looking more or less white that's fine.

It's not fine, and the "hyur aren't people!!" argument is hilarious. Hyur are clearly, blatantly and utterly human rip-offs. They have human features, human naming conventions, human dress and even have distinct human ethnicities, with Anglo-saxon and Japanese having been shown. There are even references to real world religions in this game. There is no reason whatsoever that other races couldn't be included, and insinuating that they shouldn't have, "don't fit" or "don't need" a place in fantasy is both ignorant and racist.

Yes, it's SE's game. But like all mainstream media with a global audience, it falls to them to ensure a rounded and enjoyable gaming experience for all their fans, not just a select few. It's in their financial and reputational interests to do. Being Japanese isn't a reason not to, but in fact an argument for it - if they're so "clueless" about the issue, how will they know otherwise?

My reservations initially were 100% with their attitude [i]as were many others

Always conveniently the way, isn't it? That's not even a viable excuse. More often than not it's a cheap shot used to complain because of the innate hatred certain people have of being reminded of the bias media has, as well as the fact that they benefit from it. If you suddenly change your views because you don't like how something was said, you need to take a good look at yourself.

eh

Racism and representation is a problem, whether you like it or not. Those affected by it do not have to honey their words or not bring it up to make you more comfortable, and the irony in your insistence that they do while calling them whiny and catty is incredible.

[Miste]

Or perhaps just exert some measure of control over the huge chip on your shoulder you have about me and your insatiable need to win internet arguments. There is nothing compelling you to respond to me beyond your own ego.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one as usual.

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.

Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV suffers from discrimination in its design?

If so that is blatantly untrue and completely ridiculous.

Does it lack more customization? Yes.
Does it lack more options for hair and facial features? Yes.

Discriminate? No.

You can make a character and design it after pretty much whatever race you want. I agree we need more options for facial features, and hair, etc, but what we have now is NOT discriminatory.

[Iscah]

It's not fine, and the "hyur aren't people!!" argument is hilarious. Hyur are clearly, blatantly and utterly human rip-offs. They have human features, human naming conventions, human dress and even have distinct human ethnicities, with Anglo-saxon and Japanese having been shown. There are even references to real world religions in this game. There is no reason whatsoever that other races couldn't be included, and insinuating that they shouldn't have, "don't fit" or "don't need" a place in fantasy is both ignorant and racist.

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

As I wrote previously, Hyur are physically the only human-equivalent race in Eorzea but they are not culturally the only race. Of course Hyur are people - but so are Roegadyn and Lalafell and whatever else, all regarded as equally "human" in the world of the game.

Should a fantasy world be required to replicate every real human nationality? What if (as is the case here) certain nationalities are instead being used as a basis for non-human cultures? Do there need to be humans alongside each of those other races to ensure their culture is properly represented?

Questions without an easy answer. But I don't think it's as simple as you're saying it is.

[HyoMinPark]

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

I’m guessing they’re referring to Ishgard’s religion as an approximation of Catholicism? Or the talk of a lot of Domans of the “Kami”, which could refer to Japanese Shintoism. That’s the only references I can make.

Or they’re referring to the names of certain primals, since a lot of them derive their names from real-life mythology or folklore, though their in-game counterpart can either be similar to real life, or borrowing just the name with regards to likeness; it varies— Lakshmi is an actual Hindu goddess (the goddess of wealth, fortune, and prosperity). Susano-o, Tsukuyomi, and the Four Lords all also have ties to Japanese mythology/folklore: The first two are part of the Kojiki, a compilation of Japanese origin myths; and the Four Lords originally come from Chinese mythology as gods denoted by constellations, but also have representation/presence in Japanese mythology.

Those aren’t the only ones— a quick search will show you that a lot of the primals have real-world counterparts in various different mythologies: Ifrit has Middle Eastern references, Leviathan has references in the Hebrew Bible, Garuda has references in Hinduism and Buddhism.

[Lunaxia]

snip

Western media is consumed on a global scale. 1 in 5 people in the US are non-white. Up to half the population of major cities like London and New York are non-white, and in some cases white is no longer even the majority. Multi-culturalism is growing rapidly. "But there's more white people" is an incredibly old and weak excuse used to cover the heavy bias towards white people that still exists, despite there being no shortage of other races in the industry or in the audience.

No, it's not a case of apathy "because everything is racist/ sexist" lol. It's because while people are fine saying that slurs and harassment are wrong, they don't like having it pointed out to them that they have benefited from a system that excludes or discriminates against other ethnicities and become incredibly defensive. This thread is a perfect example.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one as usual.

So says the only other person with an even bigger chip on their shoulder.

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

Taoism, from the glamour. Angels and devils, Christianity.

snip

I used the shown nationalities as an example that Hyurs are very much humans, since one of the main arguments against OP's customisation request is that they're not and that "IRL has no place in FF" when it's already rampant. We have European and Asian Hyur options available, so why not black or other races? There's just no adequate reason not to.

[Miste]

So says the only other person with an even bigger chip on their shoulder.

You're the one who said it, not me, so it doesn't matter if I have a chip on my shoulder according to you or not, but nice try? xD

If that is all you are responding to from my post then I guess you have nothing, as usual.

[HyoMinPark]

Taoism, from the glamour. Angels and devils, Christianity.

Mmm. Using glamours as a way of saying this game is representing religions is reaching. The Angelic Attire/Demonic Attire are hardly representative of Christianity as a whole. “Devils” are merely personifications of evil, which has representation in every culture and religion, not just Christianity. The only way that argument wins is if you are explicitly referring to Satan, who is the only “devil” in Christianity. At least, as denoted by the Bible.

[Lunaxia]

If that is all you are responding to from my post then I guess you have nothing, as usual.

No, I just don't waste my time with people who don't have the slightest interest in any sort of genuine exchange and are clearly out to pick a fight with me. The grudge you hold would make any discussion pointless.

snip.

No, it isn't. People have been arguing against the inclusion of IRL in FF, and they're directly named or referenced IRL religions with no background or lore explanation inserted into the game. The whole concept of heaven and hell, black vs white, halos and so on, is an entirely IRL (Christian) concept that has no place in the game.

[Miste]

No, I just don't waste my time with people who don't have the slightest interest in any sort of genuine exchange and are clearly out to pick a fight with me. The grudge you hold would make any discussion pointless.

How am I out to pick a fight with you by disagreeing that this game is discriminatory? Can you really not handle counter opinions that you would claim I am just "picking a fight" with you over it?

Also I have no grudge against you, that is just what you believe.

But, I guess you really have nothing to respond with except incorrect assumptions. /shrug