Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Iscah]

[other posters' character model suggestions]

Notice that these two faces are the exact same. If you were to change the skin and hair to a lighter one, it doesn’t effect the other features. You still get a pretty Euro looking person, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Does Rachel Dolezal and Martina Big changing their skin color change the other features of their face? Or how about an example people can relate to: Kylie Jenner. Lol.

[your 'European versions']

I'm a bit lost where you're going with the celebrity examples, but for the first bit of your post - I don't think the two other examples have used the same face at all - or if it's the same basic face, the eyes are quite different and they don't look the same to me.

Anyway, if a face can look African when paired with African colouration, and Caucasian when paired with Caucasian colouration, I feel like that's not quite the same as "not being able to make an African-looking character at all", even if you're more restricted in the choices.

And again, you're further restricted if you're set on being able to create the appearance you want specifically with a Midlander Hyuran when ultimately the character creator is quite limited for each single race but does add up to having more variety spread across the different races. Midlanders cater to a particular subset of human appearances, Highlanders to a different subset (and further appearance options are available from the other not-perfectly-human races). I don't know if they've covered all the bases between them but I think it's better that they have their own niches with subtler variations than to try and make one race cover everything.

Hyurans are also the one race where they've actually split the clans to have completely different appearances - effectively doubling the available number of 'human' face options versus any of the other races (even if it it firmly divided into two sets of options). For any other race, the models for the clans are identical and it just comes down to differences in colouration or details in the eyes.

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On the issue of whether Hyurans=humans and whether they need to have all real-world races covered, there are two ways to look at it.

On the one hand, Hyurans (Midlander and Highlander together) are the one race that are physically human - height somewhere in the 150-190cm range, small rounded ears, skin tone varying from peach to brown.

But there's another element that defines Earth-humans: we're the one sapient race found across the planet. This is not the case in Hydaelyn, where there are many other races who have physical features we consider 'non-human' but are still culturally equivalent to them.

All Hyuran cultures = real world human cultures, but not all human cultures = Hyuran. Some translate to being Miqo'te desert tribes or Xaela or beastmen.

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And again, there's the question of geography. Hydaelyn is clearly Earth-inspired, and we have Eorzea (= Europe and the Near East), Ilsabard (Russia and middle Asia?), Othard (east Asia) and the vaguely referenced 'New World' (apparently the Americas, judging by that one glamour set) and the mysterious southern continent of Meracydia, origin of the Warring Triad.

Meracydia is the one place we know nothing about - by deduction, it may equate to either Africa or Australia, both candidates for local Hyurans being dark-skinned but only if they exist in the first place. The lorebook doesn't say what kind of people live there - only that much of it was rendered uninhabitable by the ancient war with Allag, and the few modern inhabitants are hostile to outsiders, thus the lack of Eorzean knowledge about the place. (The only possible indication that there were Hyurans there, at least in the past, is that there's one among Sophia's 'demiurges' - but they are transformed in appearance and can't be seen as any particular race, or it could have been a captured Allagan woman rather than a native Meracydian anyway.) The only Meracydian races specifically mentioned in the lorebook are the 'tree-beings' and 'centaurs' that summoned Sephirot and Zurvan, respectively, and also dragons if they are as sapient as their Eorzean cousins.

So anyway, I may have gone a bit off-track, but my point is - the world of Hydaelyn has no definite Africa equivalent for "African" Hyurans to originate from, so from a lore-building perspective, where would an African-looking Hyuran have come from? The argument that "it's medieval Europe and there actually were Africans in medieval Europe" doesn't simply transfer over, because those Africans still had to migrate there, which they can't if there's no Africa to migrate from.

You can get creative with the lore and say they're Meracydian... for now. But if we ever go there as part of the story and it turns out that actual Meracydians aren't like that, it's back to the question of "how can Africans exist if there's no Africa?"

Perhaps you don't care about lore yourself, but it's still something to think about.

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On the "lack of fuller lips", maybe they don't go quite as large as you want but there *is* a noticable difference between the the mouth options. Is the 'full lips' option (always option #2 if I remember correctly) not big enough?

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For what it's worth, I wouldn't count Highlanders as 'black' (ie. by my understanding, either African or Aboriginal Australian, depending on context - and I assume everyone else here is meaning African. (Though still unclear about correctness of actually using the term in either case, and would avoid it myself.))

Geographically, I thought Ala Mhigo is roughly equivalent to the Middle East? I don't know enough of the cultures around that part of the world to be able to identify anything more specific. Please do let me know if there's an actual location they are based on.

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Ultimately, unless they completely overhaul the character creator, I don't think there's any way they can add more 'face elements' into it without removing the current ones, and I doubt they would do that. Maybe they could have done better at the start, but it wasn't - and it couldn't be changed now without affecting some people's existing characters.

On the other hand, new hairstyles are added constantly. Ask for those.

[Joven]

wall o' text

I think a way SE could work around their self imposed limitations in the character creation is to remove the sub-race aspect. Instead of having Hyur Midlander and Highlander just have Hyur, with all the features, hair and body types available to mix and match.

[Iscah]

I think a way SE could work around their self imposed limitations in the character creation is to remove the sub-race aspect. Instead of having Hyur Midlander and Highlander just have Hyur, with all the features, hair and body types available to mix and match.

Actually, from how I understand it works, keeping them split is exactly why it gives us more options in the first place.

To create a character, you pick the race/clan/gender, then the basic face, then the details.

Each face always has six options for eye shape, four options for the mouth, etc. - the face is different but the number of options never changes. (ie. I'm assuming there isn't any space, programming-structure-wise, to add more options for any one face.)

BUT for each of those faces, the options are not exactly the same. Nose #5 on face #3 will not have the exact same shape as nose #5 on face #4. But you can't mix and match the appearance of one onto the other, it can only be used on that particular face.

So every additional face gives you another set of options, so 'merging' Midlander and Highlander would do nothing except cut down the overall amount of faces available. (Also, Highlanders have completely different models and animations - functionally more like a separate race than another clan of the same race - so unless they can add an option to let you choose between the sets, you'd lose that difference as well.)

The only possibility for expansion is whether there's a definite limit for how many basic faces there are - unlike the other settings with a consistent number of options, the number of actual faces is higher for Midlanders (6 male, 5 female) than for the other clans/races (always 4). (Giving Hyurans a total of 10/9 options per gender instead of 4 for the other races.)

Perhaps all races could have six. Only the programmers know for sure. But even if they could give that increased number of characters, we'd only get one extra Midlander face out of it and all the other added variety would go to the other races.


For other races, removing the sub-races wouldn't affect the number of faces available, but it would still lose a lot of other variation that distinguishes the clans - different skin colours, unique eyes (Sunseekers' slit-pupils and Dunesfolk's 'no pupil' appearance), Au Ra scale colours, and varying customisation options - eg. Wildwood Elezen's earclasps vs Duskwights' unique tattoos, presumably stored as the same data. Also all the lore attached to those different clans.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

Actually, from how I understand it works, keeping them split is exactly why it gives us more options in the first place.

Yes it is due to height range differences. Midlander is grouped together with Au ra and Miqo te in some gears models (maybe all, cant tell atm), while Highlander is grouped with Elezen and Roegadyn, per gender.

[Iscah]

Aside from having ways to alter your nose and mouth, it would be nice to be able to construct your chin or cheekbones? I do get WHY we have pre-determined faces to make it easier for them to code/design the character creation, but not everyone will have the same style of chin or cheeks.

The 'jaw' setting changes that somewhat, I think? Also I remember someone saying a while back (in another topic) that they'd used the makeup settings to make their Elezen's cheekbones less pronounced, so perhaps you can get that to work in reverse.

Yes it is due to height range differences. Midlander is grouped together with Au ra and Miqo te in some gears models (maybe all, cant tell atm), while Highlander is grouped with Elezen and Roegadyn, per gender.

What are you meaning with that? Design-wise, as far as I'm aware everyone of the same gender gets the same gear design (other than race-specific items of course), but model-wise I'm quite sure Elezen and Roegadyn are going to need separate versions of everything. Female Roegadyn and Highlanders *might* be the same proportions, and Midlander/Miqo'te/Au Ra most probably, but Elezen, male Roegadyn and male Au Ra are more unique shapes even if they're similar heights.

I don't know for sure but I assumed the gear appearance data is stored separately for each race, they just might be able to copy-and-paste when making the models if the characters are the same size.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

What are you meaning with that?

To put it this way, the things you set in character creation is overwritten or hidden under/by the gear models. This include helms or glasses/visors, meaning the height also scales the head size. The gear models is grouped by both height range (vertical axis) and waist size (horizontal axis):

1) male hyur/miqote
2) male elezen/roegadyn/aura
3) female highlander/elezen/roegadyn
4) female midlander/aura/miqote,
and last 5) lalafell both genders.

It's the first things they get rid off from 1.0, too many models loaded. They are grouped so instead of loading 12 models of same gear, game only need 5 models. The female Hyurs are separated because different breasts range (I think) but it's also why we can't have butt slider because each group need to have body, head and pants/feet attached to each other. The tldr version when you're getting a new helm, you're essentially getting a new head. Same with body piece that is part of a set, the breasts for body piece in same group is same size/overwritten no matter what you set in character creation. This make sures glasses/visors stay attached to the head, not floating on the neck or not matching the head size, for example.

[Iscah]

To put it this way, the things you set in character creation is overwritten or hidden under/by the gear models. This include helms or glasses/visors, meaning the height also scales the head size. The gear models is grouped by both height range (vertical axis) and waist size (horizontal axis):

1) male hyur/miqote
2) male elezen/roegadyn/aura
3) female highlander/elezen/roegadyn
4) female midlander/aura/miqote,
and last 5) lalafell both genders.

Interesting. Where's this information from? (Not saying it's wrong, just wondering.)

Although having gone to the character creator to have a better look at the different models, your list of the 'groups of each model' may not be quite right.

To look at different characters in the same outfit, I went through the character creation process up to the "select job" screen, set it to show the character wearing their job clothes, selected Monk since it's a fairly form-fitting tunic, and then backtracked to the "select race/gender" screen, which leaves all the characters wearing that costume as I scroll around the list.

While I was doing this, I noticed that there are some differences in the designs, but they don't match up with your list.

Specifically, there are three variations of the black section around the neck under the yellow tunic:
1. A high-collared black undershirt - male Midlander, Highlander, Lalafell, Miqo'te and Au Ra
2. Collar only (like a choker) - male Elezen and Roegadyn
3. Collar and covered shoulders - all female models

Obviously it's divided beyond those three categories, but I would assume that characters wearing different styles aren't grouped together.

I think male Au Ra might need to have their own category since they're a unique shape - beyond just changing the height and width, they also have a narrow waist compared to their shoulders.

Also male and female Lalafells still get costume variations by gender (eg. female Lalafell bard has no undershirt and dragoon gets the 'stab me here' armour gaps).

Also also, there's headgear, particularly helmets, which needs to be shaped differently for Hyuran vs Miqo'te and Elezen vs not-pointy-eared people. (I'm not sure how HW/SB gear handles Au Ra horns, but ARR relic gear clearly doesn't care - it just clips straight through.)

So if they do use one model for multiple characters, perhaps different types of gear are divided up on a piece-by-piece basis rather than grouped the same way every time.

Same with body piece that is part of a set, the breasts for body piece in same group is same size/overwritten no matter what you set in character creation.

I've seen people bring this up a few times (usually that everything except the race-specific starter gear ignores the slider setting) but I don't believe it to be the case. Characters can have noticably different bust sizes with the same gear equipped - and by equipping job gear in the character creator and backtracking to the body settings, it's clear that the clothing shape changes as you adjust the slider.

If anything, this is why they won't implement a 'butt slider' - not because it wouldn't do anything, but because to make it do anything they would have to go back and remodel every single 'leg equipment' item in the entire game to add new adjustable parts to the shape. (And most likely need to check that it won’t clip through shirts or coats.)

[MoroMurasaki]

So anyway, I may have gone a bit off-track, but my point is - the world of Hydaelyn has no definite Africa equivalent for "African" Hyurans to originate from, so from a lore-building perspective, where would an African-looking Hyuran have come from? The argument that "it's medieval Europe and there actually were Africans in medieval Europe" doesn't simply transfer over, because those Africans still had to migrate there, which they can't if there's no Africa to migrate from.

You can get creative with the lore and say they're Meracydian... for now. But if we ever go there as part of the story and it turns out that actual Meracydians aren't like that, it's back to the question of "how can Africans exist if there's no Africa?"

Perhaps you don't care about lore yourself, but it's still something to think about.

This entire post is very well articulated but this section is specifically why I've prefaced all of my agreements with these character creator changes with "assuming it fits within established lore" and at this point I think t that is questionable at best.

It's clear Iscah has a stronger understanding of Eorzean history and geography than most so to the people making these requests I'm curious how you would navigate this particular hurdle?

[Nandina]

Ah, I guess I must have misread or just saw what I wanted to see then, I apologize for putting words in your mouth

Apologies accepted!

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This entire post is very well articulated but this section is specifically why I've prefaced all of my agreements with these character creator changes with "assuming it fits within established lore" and at this point I think t that is questionable at best.

It's clear Iscah has a stronger understanding of Eorzean history and geography than most so to the people making these requests I'm curious how you would navigate this particular hurdle?

The thing is, I never really saw Eorzea as a whole as being inspired by Europe. When I see Limsa, I see a tropical environment that reminds me an awful lot of the Carribean. When I look at Ul'Dah, I see Northern Africa, especially with all the ancient ruins and what not. Using real world history, Northern Africa historically was black and many of these people migrated South (and a lot of tribes in Sub-Sahara say they came from the North) due to constant invasions and other reasons. Due to close proximity to Europe, many Greeks and Romans moved inward; and a lot of Italians immigrated to Libya in the early 1900s. That's why if you go look at today, there's a HUGE array of phenotypes, including traditionally black ones. The one place that really gave me medieval vibes truly was Ishgard. That reminded me a lot of the Crusade Era.

[Magic-Mal]

Happy to see this thread back on track, finally! Great.

So anyway, I may have gone a bit off-track, but my point is - the world of Hydaelyn has no definite Africa equivalent for "African" Hyurans to originate from, so from a lore-building perspective, where would an African-looking Hyuran have come from? The argument that "it's medieval Europe and there actually were Africans in medieval Europe" doesn't simply transfer over, because those Africans still had to migrate there, which they can't if there's no Africa to migrate from.

You can get creative with the lore and say they're Meracydian... for now. But if we ever go there as part of the story and it turns out that actual Meracydians aren't like that, it's back to the question of "how can Africans exist if there's no Africa?"

Perhaps you don't care about lore yourself, but it's still something to think about.

I actually think it's alot simpler than you might think. If you look at these two characters, Sawney and Whatshisname:



I think we can agree that these characters are meant to be black right? Despite their features.. and that's what I want to go to.

I believe it could easily be done, however the characters could be considered old models. Remember how Yugiri was first introduced with a Miqo'te model? Or how we never saw Miqo'te children until a certain point(still have yet to see Miqo'te boys)? Or Au Ra children? Until certain time in the game's life they either didn't exist or looked different until they were fully animated. We have many Hyurs out there with unique faces that aren't playable in Ishgard, Gyr Abania, and Othard.

I think this could be a perfect example. Say Sawney is a beta or alpha version. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they eventually made a character that is black but looks different. A more complete or up-to-date character. Their origin? Who knows honestly... But that's for SE to answer!

This goes for Male Miqo'te children, Roegadyn children, various mixed races, Lalafell children(under 12) and more. I swear those people must hide in the best spots for them to go undiscovered for so long.

EDIT: LOL wrong pics....
EDIT 2: Fixed