Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Magic-Mal]

I know this was aimed at Cass but I would ignore the attitude and save the endangered species. Ignoring how much more important biodiversity is irl than in a video game I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on here.

Just remember that it's not about whether or not it's RL or a game. It's about the principle. If you could ignore the guy's attitude there but can't ignore the OP's attitude here, that would mean you pick and choose only what you want to ignore based on how much you personally care for what they're suggesting. Which sounds hypocritical.(General you's)

the closest I could find to that was people expressing their concerns that further character customization could diminish the already waning amount of content we are seeing perpatch, a notion with which I agree.

If I remember correctly, that was only one person out if all 26-27 pages. And he/she only posted that today.

Most posts criticizing the OP are saying that the way they went about suggesting this change was poor. There is not a "race problem" in character creation right now. This is not a racial issue. To make it one is silly.

Many of us have zero issue with the actual proposed changes but rather think the reasoning behind them is just shoddy.

This is the OP's first post with the small piece of "racism" cut out. And it is small:

So, I've been tempted to use a Fantasia, and change from Miqo'te, so I started playing around with the character creation, and the lack of diversity is abysmal. I wanted to make a Hyur female, but I can't help but notice there isn't much wiggle room. There's only one cute braided mohawk style, and some dookie dreads. Where are the curly or even kinky hair styles? There are no flat twists, no cornrows, no box braids, no senegalese twists, no two strand twists, etc. I thought there was an afro option, but I didn't see that either. Under the nose options, there's are no truly wider options (I'm not saying the nose has to take up the entire face). There are no larger fuller lips. Skin tones run either cool or red, and there are absolutely no yellow undertones. Many of the little boxes on the skin color grid are virtually indistinguishable from the ones at least four spaces from them vertically, making them a waste. On brown skin tones, this makes the character appear ashy and in severe need of lotion. Skin tone alone is not diversity. Sure you can make your character Sudanese black, but if the nose and lips are slim and thin, is it really a black person? No.

Releasing multiple hairstyles is cute, but when are we going to get some new faces, noses, lips, and eyebrows that don't harken back to the late 90s and early 2000s? There's nothing wrong with a thicker brow. <I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game. So you mean to tell me that my black and brown friends are good enough to receive a subscription from, but not good enough to have the character creation cater to them as well?> I'm biracial (black mom, Russian dad) and while I'm not dark skinned I don't have thin lips and sharp facial features.

I already know some people are going to be in their feelings about this, and that's fine.

Seems pretty clear what she wants. She made it clear for sure what she was asking for throughout the post. And not in an aggressive way. People are making her out as some kind of villain but what's really so bad?

And then Valkyrie's post in response:

I wouldn't say it has a race problem, as all the games races are pretty well represented, and you can choose your skin color to be whatever you want.

racial characteristics from the real world shouldn't apply, as the game doesn't denote races by color. Stop looking for racial issues where they don't exist, it makes it harder to fight for them where they do actually exist.

The most liked post, and has nothing to do with her request. Instead it provokes race and latches on to that single piece of Nandina's post.

Everyone attached to that one little piece of her whole thread and made this 27 pages of nothing.

[KaivaC]

Seems pretty clear what she wants. She made it clear for sure what she was asking for throughout the post. And not in an aggressive way. Everyone attached to that one little piece of her whole thread and made this 27 pages of nothing.

No, Magic. She turned the tone of this thread when she responded with an unnece...you know what, the hell with the sugarcoasting and pretense, she turned the tone of this thread when she responded to valkyrie's response with a semi-racist post of its own. I'm gonna call it what it is. It was semi-racist. Not calling her racist, but the tone of her very first response was semi-racist in nature. That's what started this ridiculous argument over an asinine topic. It's not the first time she's shared similar language since that posting either. Are the other posters innocent by comparison? Depending on the response, no, some of the responses, mines included, aren't innocent either. But she set that tone, and here we are: the responses therein follow that tone all the way through to here. valkyrie's initial post was aggressive...but it wasn't wrong. And I agree with the tone there - one shouldn't be looking for context over the freaking character creation when there is no context to begin with. The only leg that Nandina would've had to stand on was if the character creator did not allow any darker skin tones. That would've been the only leg she would've had.

[Ghastly]

So basically any idea I disagree with like equality in female/male glam I should just make it about the tone instead of the idea itself. Now we know what to say to those who complain about female/male glams and how they're not equal, just look at the the tone and if you disagree with the tone the idea should be dismissed.

I already stated I’m not against more customization; I’d actually prefer it over another race. I am against the poor labeling that was done in the thread title and in the opening post, because it sets up a biased premise.

This post also fits into your last comment, by the way. I’ve at least addressed the customization desires in 2/3–now 3/4–of my posts in this thread. That’s not against the forum rules.

Your "support" was a footnote in 1 of your posts. Your sentence about the idea suggested here is in reference to your earlier statement which you site in that sentence. So yes, all your posts have been in violation of the forum rules where you're asking the OP to talk to you in a way that doesn't make you feel insecure and then you can discuss the idea.

No, Magic. She turned the tone of this thread when she responded with an unnece...you know what, the hell with the sugarcoasting and pretense, she turned the tone of this thread when she responded to valkyrie's response with a semi-racist post of its own. I'm gonna call it what it is. It was semi-racist. Not calling her racist, but the tone of her very first response was semi-racist in nature. That's what started this ridiculous argument over an asinine topic. It's not the first time she's shared similar language since that posting either. Are the other posters innocent by comparison? Depending on the response, no, some of the responses, mines included, aren't innocent either. But she set that tone, and here we are: the responses therein follow that tone all the way through to here. valkyrie's initial post was aggressive...but it wasn't wrong. And I agree with the tone there - one shouldn't be looking for context over the freaking character creation when there is no context to begin with. The only leg that Nandina would've had to stand on was if the character creator did not allow any darker skin tones. That would've been the only leg she would've had.

So what you agree with isn't aggressive while what you disagree with is. On that note, no, OP: wasn't insinuating that Valkyrie was racist, this is just your paranoia of being thought of as a racist creeping up. Can you point out where OP was insinuating that Valkyrie was racist? Again, calm down, no one's calling you a racist. Unless again, you can prove it.

[HyoMinPark]

Your "support" was a footnote in 1 of your posts. Your sentence about the idea suggested here is in reference to your earlier statement which you site in that sentence. So yes, all your posts have been in violation of the forum rules where you're asking the OP to talk to you in a way that doesn't make you feel insecure and then you can discuss the idea.

I’m fine to discuss character customization limitations and problems with the current character customization system; I’m not fine to discuss “race problems” that don’t exist.

It’s cute that you think I’m the insecure one here, though. It’s also cute that you continue to ignore your own threats and statements of forum violations while you continue to violate these “rules” yourself. This entire thread has been a derailment from its intended purpose, and you are fueling that. Take some time to recognize that.

you should work on staying on topic

You should take heed of that as well.

I’m off to do something more productive. No use in responding to someone who just wants to have the last word.

[Ghastly]

I’m fine to discuss character customization limitations and problems with the current character customization system; I’m not fine to discuss “race problems” that don’t exist.

It’s cute that you think I’m the insecure one here, though. It’s also cute that you continue to ignore your own threats and statements of forum violations while you continue to violate these “rules” yourself. This entire thread has been a derailment from its intended purpose, and you are fueling that. Take some time to recognize that.

I can point out where you're breaking them, while you can't do the same; all you can do is state it without anything to back it up.
You had plenty of chances to start discussing the idea and topic yet you wanted to discuss what the merits for discussing race suggestions were. If anyone's responsible for not discussing it make sure to take a look in the mirror. I was the first person here who brought up the fact that all you're doing is deflecting/finding anything to talk about except the idea/suggestion.

Don't stick what belongs to you on me.

[Magic-Mal]

No, Magic. She turned the tone of this thread when she responded with an unnece...you know what, the hell with the sugarcoasting and pretense, she turned the tone of this thread when she responded to valkyrie's response with a semi-racist post of its own. I'm gonna call it what it is. It was semi-racist. Not calling her racist, but the tone of her very first response was semi-racist in nature. That's what started this ridiculous argument over an asinine topic. It's not the first time she's shared similar language since that posting either. Are the other posters innocent by comparison? Depending on the response, no, some of the responses, mines included, aren't innocent either. But she set that tone, and here we are: the responses therein follow that tone all the way through to here. valkyrie's initial post was aggressive...but it wasn't wrong. And I agree with the tone there - one shouldn't be looking for context over the freaking character creation when there is no context to begin with.

Aggression is bad no matter what. It's not fair to say you agree with Valkyrie's aggression so she's right but disagree with Nandina's aggression so she's wrong. Aggression is aggression. And Valkyrie's chose to talk about the bit of race stuff in Nandina's post and then got aggressive with it, instead of simply responding to the suggestion. She could've even said a bit a both:

"No I don't think we need this or could have this because blahblahblah.

Also, please don't make this a RL racial issue blahblah."
But that didn't happen..

The only leg that Nandina would've had to stand on was if the character creator did not allow any darker skin tones. That would've been the only leg she would've had.

Wait... Just skin tone? She couldn't ask for "African" hairstyles or facial features(we already know the features are unlikely for #Yoshireasons)?

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

(I'm not snipping your posts to be disrespectful but I'm on my phone and multiquoting is rough, my apologies)

But the point is that the OP's post was clearly motivated by irl races. That is the problem. This game isnt set on earth, it's in Eorzea. They do not need to have irl races represented and the part of the OP's post you are leaving out is very hostile. Talking about taking subs from people but not having character creation "for them"? What the [expelative] is that?

That is the sentiment I take issue with.

I'm not arguing against her ideas about "saving the tigers" but just because you agree with one thing a person says doesn't mean you can't criticize something else. Her end goal may be fine as long as it fits within they established universe (which, for the most part, I think it does) but I can still call out her motivations and methods as being hyperbolic, guilt-trippy and nonsensical.

For what feels like the hundredth time I have no issue with the idea of expanding character creation (apart from the aforementioned resource allocation it could take which may not have been brought up here much but is often brought up in relation to these sort of ideas - look at male bunny suit/butt slider threads if you want to see examples) but I do have issues with anyone feeling entitled to have character creation expanded based on their own appearance or the appearance of people irl.

To be frank I am a girl with wider hips and a bigger butt. I would love to be able to see those kinds of features on my character to make her feel a bit more "me". At the same time I'm not saying SE is discriminatory with their character creator or that I am entitled to their labor towards this thing I would enjoy. If they do it that would be lovely, if they don't well it is their game and I respect their choice.

I realize the idea affects very few of you so it's why it's easier for those it doesn't affect to take turns replying, yet I'm in my own right to reply to whoever is replying to me. With that, you should work on staying on topic because your understanding of what a threat is isn't even remotely accurate. Again, if this is making some of you feel insecure to discuss the suggestion and its implications you don't have to.

I don't think anyone feels insecure, just annoyed at repeating themselves.

[KaivaC]

So what you agree with isn't aggressive while what you disagree with is. On that note, no, OP: wasn't insinuating that Valkyrie was racist, this is just your paranoia of being thought of as a racist creeping up. Can you point out where OP was insinuating that Valkyrie was racist? Again, calm down, no one's calling you a racist. Unless again, you can prove it.

Couldn't get anywhere with Hyo, Miste, and Cass, so you turn your attention to me? Okay then, let's address you. Being thought of as racist? "No one's calling you a racist"??? What? No, really, what? None of what you said makes any sense whatsoever. It's like all you took out of my post was a word and then just went on a nonsensical response from there. Which, by the way, the response I was referring to said that the response was semi-racist in nature - didn't label anybody as racist. ...Oh god, now I've turned this into a buzzword for this thread. Yup, I'm done chatting with you. Moving on...

Aggression is bad no matter what. It's not fair to say you agree with Valkyrie's aggression so she's right but disagree with Nandina's aggression so she's wrong. Aggression is aggression. And Valkyrie's chose to talk about the bit of race stuff in Nandina's post and then got aggressive with it, instead of simply responding to the suggestion. She could've even said a bit a both:

"No I don't think we need this or could have this because blahblahblah.

Also, please don't make this a RL racial issue blahblah."
But that didn't happen..


Wait... Just skin tone? She couldn't ask for "African" hairstyles or facial features(we already know the features are unlikely for #Yoshireasons)?

In my opinion, yes, I agree with what valkyrie said. And yes, I disagree with some of the premise of the OP. So what you're saying is, because I agree with one aggressive post but not another...my own opinion about the matter is essentially flawed? That is some...wow, I don't even think there's a word to describe this. This calls to mind a meme featuring Xzibit doing wordplay. valkyrie did essentially say don't make this a racial issue. What, that has to be spelled out exactly for some people to actually comprehend it? I fail to understand how somebody can say that this game under-represents as if it were either intentional or that the devs were tone-deaf. Honestly, I am 100% surprised that a community manager hasn't popped in with a warning like they have with prior threads.

But it seems like you're attempting to right this shipwreck, so let's see how that goes. More hairstyles would be nice, yes - this community has beaten that horse to death so many times, though. The character creator as it is...sucks. There's just no other way to put it. When compared to other IPs that have come out, it just pales in comparison. With all the energy that has been put into this thread, I'm willing to bet folks could've realized that this thread was going nowhere, started a new one...call it 'Post your requested hairstyles', and let that gain traction. The thread could've been players posting screenshots of the kinds of hairstyles they wanted, and I am positive that it would have actually been far more productive than this mess of a thread.

[MoroMurasaki]

This isn't only about hair. I think you know that.

Whether or not you agree with the idea of adding more ethnic features/hairstyles, that's all fine and dandy. We're all allowed an opinion on the matter. However, trying to dismiss the entire conversation as "I just want these hairstyles" isn't right.

Petty sure Iscah was replying to...

With all the energy that has been put into this thread, I'm willing to bet folks could've realized that this thread was going nowhere, started a new one...call it 'Post your requested hairstyles', and let that gain traction. The thread could've been players posting screenshots of the kinds of hairstyles they wanted, and I am positive that it would have actually been far more productive than this mess of a thread.

Which is literally directly above their post.

[Skivvy]

Petty sure Iscah was replying to...

Which is literally directly above their post.

I took it as them just summing up this hot mess as "I just want more hair", but I very well may have missed something. If that wasn't the case, I apologize D: