Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Iscah]

Aside from having ways to alter your nose and mouth, it would be nice to be able to construct your chin or cheekbones? I do get WHY we have pre-determined faces to make it easier for them to code/design the character creation, but not everyone will have the same style of chin or cheeks.

The 'jaw' setting changes that somewhat, I think? Also I remember someone saying a while back (in another topic) that they'd used the makeup settings to make their Elezen's cheekbones less pronounced, so perhaps you can get that to work in reverse.

Yes it is due to height range differences. Midlander is grouped together with Au ra and Miqo te in some gears models (maybe all, cant tell atm), while Highlander is grouped with Elezen and Roegadyn, per gender.

What are you meaning with that? Design-wise, as far as I'm aware everyone of the same gender gets the same gear design (other than race-specific items of course), but model-wise I'm quite sure Elezen and Roegadyn are going to need separate versions of everything. Female Roegadyn and Highlanders *might* be the same proportions, and Midlander/Miqo'te/Au Ra most probably, but Elezen, male Roegadyn and male Au Ra are more unique shapes even if they're similar heights.

I don't know for sure but I assumed the gear appearance data is stored separately for each race, they just might be able to copy-and-paste when making the models if the characters are the same size.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

What are you meaning with that?

To put it this way, the things you set in character creation is overwritten or hidden under/by the gear models. This include helms or glasses/visors, meaning the height also scales the head size. The gear models is grouped by both height range (vertical axis) and waist size (horizontal axis):

1) male hyur/miqote
2) male elezen/roegadyn/aura
3) female highlander/elezen/roegadyn
4) female midlander/aura/miqote,
and last 5) lalafell both genders.

It's the first things they get rid off from 1.0, too many models loaded. They are grouped so instead of loading 12 models of same gear, game only need 5 models. The female Hyurs are separated because different breasts range (I think) but it's also why we can't have butt slider because each group need to have body, head and pants/feet attached to each other. The tldr version when you're getting a new helm, you're essentially getting a new head. Same with body piece that is part of a set, the breasts for body piece in same group is same size/overwritten no matter what you set in character creation. This make sures glasses/visors stay attached to the head, not floating on the neck or not matching the head size, for example.

[MoroMurasaki]

So anyway, I may have gone a bit off-track, but my point is - the world of Hydaelyn has no definite Africa equivalent for "African" Hyurans to originate from, so from a lore-building perspective, where would an African-looking Hyuran have come from? The argument that "it's medieval Europe and there actually were Africans in medieval Europe" doesn't simply transfer over, because those Africans still had to migrate there, which they can't if there's no Africa to migrate from.

You can get creative with the lore and say they're Meracydian... for now. But if we ever go there as part of the story and it turns out that actual Meracydians aren't like that, it's back to the question of "how can Africans exist if there's no Africa?"

Perhaps you don't care about lore yourself, but it's still something to think about.

This entire post is very well articulated but this section is specifically why I've prefaced all of my agreements with these character creator changes with "assuming it fits within established lore" and at this point I think t that is questionable at best.

It's clear Iscah has a stronger understanding of Eorzean history and geography than most so to the people making these requests I'm curious how you would navigate this particular hurdle?

[Iscah]

To put it this way, the things you set in character creation is overwritten or hidden under/by the gear models. This include helms or glasses/visors, meaning the height also scales the head size. The gear models is grouped by both height range (vertical axis) and waist size (horizontal axis):

1) male hyur/miqote
2) male elezen/roegadyn/aura
3) female highlander/elezen/roegadyn
4) female midlander/aura/miqote,
and last 5) lalafell both genders.

Interesting. Where's this information from? (Not saying it's wrong, just wondering.)

Although having gone to the character creator to have a better look at the different models, your list of the 'groups of each model' may not be quite right.

To look at different characters in the same outfit, I went through the character creation process up to the "select job" screen, set it to show the character wearing their job clothes, selected Monk since it's a fairly form-fitting tunic, and then backtracked to the "select race/gender" screen, which leaves all the characters wearing that costume as I scroll around the list.

While I was doing this, I noticed that there are some differences in the designs, but they don't match up with your list.

Specifically, there are three variations of the black section around the neck under the yellow tunic:
1. A high-collared black undershirt - male Midlander, Highlander, Lalafell, Miqo'te and Au Ra
2. Collar only (like a choker) - male Elezen and Roegadyn
3. Collar and covered shoulders - all female models

Obviously it's divided beyond those three categories, but I would assume that characters wearing different styles aren't grouped together.

I think male Au Ra might need to have their own category since they're a unique shape - beyond just changing the height and width, they also have a narrow waist compared to their shoulders.

Also male and female Lalafells still get costume variations by gender (eg. female Lalafell bard has no undershirt and dragoon gets the 'stab me here' armour gaps).

Also also, there's headgear, particularly helmets, which needs to be shaped differently for Hyuran vs Miqo'te and Elezen vs not-pointy-eared people. (I'm not sure how HW/SB gear handles Au Ra horns, but ARR relic gear clearly doesn't care - it just clips straight through.)

So if they do use one model for multiple characters, perhaps different types of gear are divided up on a piece-by-piece basis rather than grouped the same way every time.

Same with body piece that is part of a set, the breasts for body piece in same group is same size/overwritten no matter what you set in character creation.

I've seen people bring this up a few times (usually that everything except the race-specific starter gear ignores the slider setting) but I don't believe it to be the case. Characters can have noticably different bust sizes with the same gear equipped - and by equipping job gear in the character creator and backtracking to the body settings, it's clear that the clothing shape changes as you adjust the slider.

If anything, this is why they won't implement a 'butt slider' - not because it wouldn't do anything, but because to make it do anything they would have to go back and remodel every single 'leg equipment' item in the entire game to add new adjustable parts to the shape. (And most likely need to check that it won’t clip through shirts or coats.)

[Magic-Mal]

Happy to see this thread back on track, finally! Great.

So anyway, I may have gone a bit off-track, but my point is - the world of Hydaelyn has no definite Africa equivalent for "African" Hyurans to originate from, so from a lore-building perspective, where would an African-looking Hyuran have come from? The argument that "it's medieval Europe and there actually were Africans in medieval Europe" doesn't simply transfer over, because those Africans still had to migrate there, which they can't if there's no Africa to migrate from.

You can get creative with the lore and say they're Meracydian... for now. But if we ever go there as part of the story and it turns out that actual Meracydians aren't like that, it's back to the question of "how can Africans exist if there's no Africa?"

Perhaps you don't care about lore yourself, but it's still something to think about.

I actually think it's alot simpler than you might think. If you look at these two characters, Sawney and Whatshisname:



I think we can agree that these characters are meant to be black right? Despite their features.. and that's what I want to go to.

I believe it could easily be done, however the characters could be considered old models. Remember how Yugiri was first introduced with a Miqo'te model? Or how we never saw Miqo'te children until a certain point(still have yet to see Miqo'te boys)? Or Au Ra children? Until certain time in the game's life they either didn't exist or looked different until they were fully animated. We have many Hyurs out there with unique faces that aren't playable in Ishgard, Gyr Abania, and Othard.

I think this could be a perfect example. Say Sawney is a beta or alpha version. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they eventually made a character that is black but looks different. A more complete or up-to-date character. Their origin? Who knows honestly... But that's for SE to answer!

This goes for Male Miqo'te children, Roegadyn children, various mixed races, Lalafell children(under 12) and more. I swear those people must hide in the best spots for them to go undiscovered for so long.

EDIT: LOL wrong pics....
EDIT 2: Fixed

[Nandina]

Ah, I guess I must have misread or just saw what I wanted to see then, I apologize for putting words in your mouth

Apologies accepted!

...

This entire post is very well articulated but this section is specifically why I've prefaced all of my agreements with these character creator changes with "assuming it fits within established lore" and at this point I think t that is questionable at best.

It's clear Iscah has a stronger understanding of Eorzean history and geography than most so to the people making these requests I'm curious how you would navigate this particular hurdle?

The thing is, I never really saw Eorzea as a whole as being inspired by Europe. When I see Limsa, I see a tropical environment that reminds me an awful lot of the Carribean. When I look at Ul'Dah, I see Northern Africa, especially with all the ancient ruins and what not. Using real world history, Northern Africa historically was black and many of these people migrated South (and a lot of tribes in Sub-Sahara say they came from the North) due to constant invasions and other reasons. Due to close proximity to Europe, many Greeks and Romans moved inward; and a lot of Italians immigrated to Libya in the early 1900s. That's why if you go look at today, there's a HUGE array of phenotypes, including traditionally black ones. The one place that really gave me medieval vibes truly was Ishgard. That reminded me a lot of the Crusade Era.

[Ghastly]

Happy to see this thread back on track, finally! Great.



I actually think it's alot simpler than you might think. If you look at these two characters, Sawney and Whatshisname:



I think we can agree that these characters are meant to be black right? Despite their features.. and that's what I want to go to.

I believe it could easily be done, however the characters could be considered old models. Remember how Yugirir was first introduced with a Miqo'te model? Or how we never saw Miqo'te children until a certain point(still have yet to see Miqo'te boys)? Or Au Ra children? Until certain time in the game's life they either didn't exist or looked different until they were fully animated. We have many Hyurs out there with unique faces that aren't playable in Ishgard, Gyr Abania, and Othard.

I think this could be a perfect example. Say Sawney is a beta or alpha version. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they eventually made a character that is black but looks different. A more complete or up-to-date character. Their origin? Who knows honestly... But that's for SE to answer!

This goes for Male Miqo'te children, Roegadyn children, various mixed races, Lalafell children(under 12) and more. I swear those people must hide in the best spots for them to go undiscovered for so long.

The devs achieved the idea of fuller face features in some cases (mostly always 1 option per face feature) so to them there really aren't any limits to adding that concerning lore or region. As you say, it's simpler than lore, it's about adding more of the Afrikan features when they figure out how to add more stuff, lore doesn't prevent it. In fact, if we're equating hydaelyn to regions in the world races like Au ra should have more Afrikan features.

[Nandina]

The devs achieved the idea of fuller face features in some cases (mostly always 1 option per face feature) so to them there really aren't any limits to adding that concerning lore or region. As you say, it's simpler than lore, it's about adding more of the Afrikan features when they figure out how to add more stuff, lore doesn't prevent it. In fact, if we're equating hydaelyn to regions in the world races like Au ra should have more Afrikan features.

Just to hop in on this. I never thought the issue was lore related to begin with. I just think it never truly crossed their mind to that extent. But here's another thought. Maybe in the future they can give every race another clan? This could potentially cover any face changes people may want regardless to the playable race, being that it's said that they can't just add to what's already there.

[Magic-Mal]

The devs achieved the idea of fuller face features in some cases (mostly always 1 option per face feature) so to them there really aren't any limits to adding that concerning lore or region. As you say, it's simpler than lore, it's about adding more of the Afrikan features when they figure out how to add more stuff, lore doesn't prevent it. In fact, if we're equating hydaelyn to regions in the world races like Au ra should have more Afrikan features.

Those were the wrong pics btw lol. Not even the right guys. I fixed it though.

[KisaiTenshi]

Just to hop in on this. I never thought the issue was lore related to begin with. I just think it never truly crossed their mind to that extent. But here's another thought. Maybe in the future they can give every race another clan? This could potentially cover any face changes people may want regardless to the playable race, being that it's said that they can't just add to what's already there.

That is very likely the most direct way to get that into the game. But are we talking about 4 additional face shapes and a different build that would require new models, or simply one that has a different head? For all the talk of butt sliders, the only way to get a curvy butt would require a change that affects all the models. The Miqo'te players have (jokingly mostly) wanted the 1.0 butt back.

Like I wouldn't put it past the developers in this game going "hey we haven't shown you guys where the (lore reason) races came from yet". We know there's U clan in Thanalan. Where's the rest of them? F, Y and K clans should be somewhere. Perhaps we can find a third clan elsewhere in the world for some of the races that have different facial options. I mean look at Gosetsu, he's a Roe, but he's from Othard and has a significantly different appearance from all the Roe's we've seen.