DPS Enmity controls

[Ekimmak]

Ideally, everyone does their part properly and you dont need all the safety nets, but guess what, its a PUG. You dont know what youre getting so do YOUR part to make sure the run goes smoothly and play it conservatively. You will win more fights. Screw your parse. You are in a PUG clear party to win the fight, not epeen inflate. Go join a speedrun PF if that's your priority.

This is exactly how I feel when I see threads talking about how trash tankstance is.

[CorbinDallas]

Using Lucid because you wanna dps messes with my mana for 3 rotations.

It doesn't mess you up at all. First off, if you actually knew the job you would know that Astral Fire stops all MP regen while active. Secondly, having more MP per tick during ice phase doesn't hinder anything at all. Finally, using Lucid is even easier for us since we get plenty of instant casts we can use to weave it in. There is no excuse to not use Lucid as a BLM.

In future, know what you're talking about before you make yourself look stupid.

[bustamanteverde]

This game is a lot more pleasant when you are willing to just take the occasional hit to your personal performance for the group.
Ideally, everyone does their part properly and you dont need all the safety nets, but guess what, its a PUG. You dont know what youre getting so do YOUR part to make sure the run goes smoothly and play it conservatively. You will win more fights. Screw your parse. You are in a PUG clear party to win the fight, not epeen inflate. Go join a speedrun PF if that's your priority.

As a tank who does mostly daily roulettes I enjoy having the DPS go all out and melt mobs. I stay in tank stance to fight all groups of mobs and when it comes to bosses I stay in tank till I feel I have a very solid lead in enmity and then go DPS stance. I glance at the enmity meters and if someone reaches half I switch to tank stance and grab that sweet enmity back. As tank I fell that is my goal then go ham on DPS, and occasionally protecting my team with cover and divine veil etc...

[wereotter]

The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).

This is not correct. Certain DPS jobs actually DO lose to utilize their enmity tools. Monk has to spend time building up 5 chakra stacks, which is something that they, in general, only gain as a 50% chance on a critical weapon skill, and then once they have all 5, they have to choose to use it on an enmity dump with a 2 minute cool down instead of using it on a high-potency off global cool down attack. So, as a monk, I have to look at it like this. I'm giving up a 358 potency off global cool down, meaning the tank's DPS combo will have to produce more damage than that in order for it to be worth it for the party as a whole to use.

Similarly samurai can only trigger their enmity dump by timing the activation of Third Eye within 3 seconds of taking damage, and then they too have to sacrifice using a proc for a higher potency off global cool down move in order to dump agro. This, to go back to the original poster's question, is part of why you might struggle with samurais. If they're not taking damage, they have no means of dumping agro. Similarly to monk, as well, the tank added DPS needs to out damage the damage lost to a samurai for not using this skill, if the tank can't do more damage than the samurai OGCD, then the tank should do more enmity combos.

All that said, diversion is really powerful, so if a DPS is using that skill and still pulling enemies off the tank, then it's the tank's job at that point to maintain agro as the DPS have done their part.

[Kabooa]

So, as a monk, I have to look at it like this. I'm giving up a 358 potency off global cool down, meaning the tank's DPS combo will have to produce more damage than that in order for it to be worth it for the party as a whole to use..

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it.

Regarding when to dump and when to push, instead consider this.

Assuming some standard DPS numbers of 6k for melee and 4k for tank, when out of tank stance, that means the DPS is doing 6k TPS and the tank is doing 4k TPS.

If we set the tank's starting threat after the opener, considering 15 seconds of shadewalker from a ninja, then at, say, 20 seconds, the tank should have amassed approximately 260k threat (7k opener ninja, 6k opener tank) while the monk has amassed 16k (8k opener, -90% from diversion)

Edit: Above numbers are wrong, but we'll do it anyways since it favors the tank (mo threat)

At a starting difference of 244k, a monk at 6k and a tank at 4k, the monk will catch the tank at threat at approximately 2 minutes and 2 seconds. Ignoring Diversion and shirk, for the sake of the argument, if the monk instead continues to push damage, the tank must swap to a threat combo or be overtaken.

A paladin using their threat combo is replacing Royal Authority, and dealing close to 20% less damage, but gains a threat multiplier on Savage And Rage of Halone.

The paladin DPS doing this, we'll say, drops down to 3600 to maintain this. (Less Royal Authorities, less ideal Reqqycat timings) and will likely stay at here.

If the monk instead pops Purification, at current threat amounts (732k) the monk dumps 146k, and instead allows the paladin to maintain the extra 400 DPS for 72 seconds. Even assuming the Monk DCrits Forbidden Chakra, we'll say at 18k, the Paladin dealing 400 more DPS for 72 seconds is 28,800 damage.

So effectively speaking, if Diversion or Shirk are not available, you cost the party less damage by just using your damn Purification instead of forcing Threat combos, or worse, a tank stance.

[wereotter]

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it.

Regarding when to dump and when to push, instead consider this.

Assuming some standard DPS numbers of 6k for melee and 4k for tank, when out of tank stance, that means the DPS is doing 6k TPS and the tank is doing 4k TPS.

If we set the tank's starting threat after the opener, considering 15 seconds of shadewalker from a ninja, then at, say, 20 seconds, the tank should have amassed approximately 260k threat (7k opener ninja, 6k opener tank) while the monk has amassed 16k (8k opener, -90% from diversion)

At a starting difference of 244k, a monk at 6k and a tank at 4k, the monk will catch the tank at threat at approximately 2 minutes and 2 seconds. Ignoring Diversion and shirk, for the sake of the argument, if the monk instead continues to push damage, the tank must swap to a threat combo or be overtaken.

A paladin using their threat combo is replacing Royal Authority, and dealing close to 20% less damage, but gains a threat multiplier on Savage And Rage of Halone.

The paladin DPS doing this, we'll say, drops down to 3600 to maintain this. (Less Royal Authorities, less ideal Reqqycat timings) and will likely stay at here.

If the monk instead pops Purification, at current threat amounts (732k) the monk dumps 146k, and instead allows the paladin to maintain the extra 400 DPS for 72 seconds. Even assuming the Monk DCrits Forbidden Chakra, we'll say at 18k, the Paladin dealing 400 more DPS for 72 seconds is 28,800 damage.

So effectively speaking, if Diversion or Shirk are not available, you cost the party less damage by just using your damn Purification instead of forcing Threat combos, or worse, a tank stance.

I don't play SAM enough to be able to say how good it was or not, but it does still stand that the job literally can not dump enmity without timing Third Eye nearly perfectly (since server latency has to register the skill was used, and then it only applies the buff for 3 seconds)

Monk, however, I do still stand by. As a monk, diversion is pretty much mandatory, and it's available for every other burst phase, meaning monk agro management isn't terrible. But if it comes down to using Forbidden Chakra, or Purification, especially under Riddle of Fire where it has an effective potency of 465, unless one or two agro combos loses a tank more damage than the skill puts out, which should be in the range of about 15,000 damage, then it's better for the tank to manage that agro than for the monk to drop a skill.

Your argument implies that I'm saying a tank should just sit in tank stance and do agro combos. I'm not. I'm saying that if I, as a DPS, will put out more damage using one of my damage skills than a tank will lose by doing an extra enmity combo or two, then the tank should be adjusting to the situation rather than the DPS.

[Kabooa]

Your argument implies that I'm saying a tank should just sit in tank stance and do agro combos. I'm not. I'm saying that if I, as a DPS, will put out more damage using one of my damage skills than a tank will lose by doing an extra enmity combo or two, then the tank should be adjusting to the situation rather than the DPS.

My argument implies a few things, but a Dump is more damage for the party because it's threat the tank doesn't have to generate. A tank in tank stance doing threat combos does stupid threat, but we aren't doing that. We're looking at tanks in DPS stance who have to swap to aggro combos to prevent it from ripping off. A tank in tnak stance doing threat combos is something around 64% of the outgoing DPS of a DPS tank but doing somewhere around 400% more threat.

Even in the above example diversion is ready again (thus extending the time to overtake) and shirk is available at least once if not twice (unless required for a swap).

Both purification and threat combos / tank stance are not required, -but- if they were and for some reason these tools are not available, you cost your party less damage by just dumping. Factoring in Riddle of Fire for this monk in the example puts the Chakra at 23.4k, which is still short of 28.8k for forcing the tank to do aggro combos instead of dumping.

also it's worth noting that Dark Knight loses less damage here than paladin would in this scenario, while Warrior loses close to nothing assuming they don't have to do an IR window and have Unchained ready.

I have to clarify that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out some pretty generic cases.

[GrumbleBeard]

I have no problems with tanks dpsing or anything or dps using diversion/aggro reduction when available, but it is a little odd to me to see tanking in this game devolve a little into just being a dps with defense cooldowns. I know everyone cites that dps has all these aggro moves so why not use them, and that is true, but devs pretty much had to add them in at the insistence of players. Thinking back to when SB came out it felt a little more difficult to maintain a large agro lead and diversion was still in it's quelling strikes state and since then they have increased agro gen for tanks and increased agro reduction for dps. I guess what I am trying to say is that it feels like agro is just kind of.. there. It's kind of like protect, just something you do at the beginning because you have to and then hopefully never again. So why have it at all at that point?

[Valcarde]

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it..

Hissatsu: Seigan is more kenki efficient than Hissastu: Shinten.

Hissastu: Seigan is 13.3 potency per Kenki
Hissastu: Shinten is 12 potency per Kenki

If you have the Third Eye proc and need to blow it on a Merciful Eyes, you're losing out on the extra potency per kenki that Hissatsu: Seigan would provide per kenki.

[Kabooa]

Hissatsu: Seigan is more kenki efficient than Hissastu: Shinten.

Hissastu: Seigan is 13.3 potency per Kenki
Hissastu: Shinten is 12 potency per Kenki

If you have the Third Eye proc and need to blow it on a Merciful Eyes, you're losing out on the extra potency per kenki that Hissatsu: Seigan would provide per kenki.

Seigan is trash. Critical and Direct Hit variance is going to have a larger determining factor on your final DPS than trying to use Seigan. The amount of micromanagement for the reward is awful.

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