DPS Enmity controls

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Yes, DPS should use their aggro tools, but if they don't, it's the tank's responsibility to make up for their mistake. Imagine what would happen if healers did the same: Only heal the damage that is unavoidable, if someone gets hit by some avoidable AoE, don't heal that portion, because it lowers the healers DPS. That's the healer equivalent of what you are promoting for tanks.

I have no qualms switching to tank stance if people are dying and healer MP is getting stretched thin or if a DPS who has used their aggro abilities begins catching up again. I do, however, take issue with being forced into tank stance and having to spam multiple combos because a Samurai or White Mage refuses to dump their aggro. It has nothing to do with wanting to DPS more, it simply annoys me, especially on Dark Knight since Grit + Powerslash can mess with the rotation flow. If you constantly baby people, they'll never use their aggro abilities. I've let someone eat a tank buster before, it's funny how they suddenly remembered what Diversion and Lucid do. Likewise, I do this on healers. If someone continuously dies to avoidable damage, you've become a liability to my MP and can stay on the floor. Just like with tanks and aggro, it's amazing how quickly people learn to actually dodge when the healers get fed up raising them.

As far as I'm concerned there's a limit. If things are going poorly for the whole alliance, sure, I'll play more conservatively. Is someone new? I'll be far more patience. And, of course, if my ilvl is much lower, I'll compensate. Beyond that, no, I am not correcting for someone too lazy to bring Diversion. If I do another aggro combo or two and that isn't enough, the boss will mitigate the problem. And maybe next time you'll use Diversion.

[HyoMinPark]

It's a party wide responsibility, yes, but yet you are promoting that everyone but the tank, who's primary job is keeping aggro, take that responsibility (since it seems you don't want to use the aggro combo at all). The tank is part of the party too, you know?

Letting a DPS take aggro and then let that DPS die, having him being ressed with almost no mp and tp lowers the party wide DPS way more than throwing an aggro combo now and then, or even switching to tank stance for 3 aggro combos or so and subsequently not needing to worry about aggro anymore. The suggested tank behaviour you promote here is hurting the party and thus yourself, just because you want to DPS, but don't want DPS queues.

Again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Yes, DPS should use their aggro tools, but if they don't, it's the tank's responsibility to make up for their mistake. Imagine what would happen if healers did the same: Only heal the damage that is unavoidable, if someone gets hit by some avoidable AoE, don't heal that portion, because it lowers the healers DPS. That's the healer equivalent of what you are promoting for tanks.

Every party member is supposed to make up for other party members' mistakes if they can. And again: the tank is also a party member.

No, I'm promoting that DPS use the tools given to them instead of saying "it's the tanks reaponsibility, not mine", which is basically what a few have said in this thread (Boris, for example, who said tanks should use more aggro combos or tank stance instead of his BLM using Lucid or Diversion to make things easier).

If the DPS refuse to use enmity tools, it is not the tank's responsibility to make up for their ineptitude. If DPS are actively rotating Diversion/Lucid/Refresh/Tactician/Elusive Jump and still catching the tank on enmity, then there are no issues with tanks having to switch into tank stance for a couple of GCDs, or do an extra enmity combo or two. But if the DPS are not, why should the tank be the one to adjust? They're a party member, but that's not teamwork. That's, again, forcing the responsibility onto the tank because DPS are too lazy to hit a button to quell or halve their current enmity.

I don't play tanks often. So the insinuation I'm just wanting to DPS with faster queues is incorrect. I do, however, play healers, and if someone (who is not brand new to the Duty) dies more than three times to avoidable damage; I stop raising them because they're now a liability to, and a waste of, my MP. I also keep track of my enmity on WHM, and manage it accordingly. I don't feel sorry for other WHMs that don't. If my enmity is unavoidable due to sheer amounts of healing even with Lucid rotating, then usually tanks adjust when I've done all I can. I don't blame them for not adjusting, though, if I'm pulling aggro and sitting on Lucid twiddling my thumbs.

DPS should use their enmity tools. Tanks should do extra aggro combos or switch to tank stance if they are still being caught by those DPS. But by DPS who refuse to hit Diversion or Lucid or another enmity tool? No, I don't think a tank should compensate for that. The DPS isn't being a team player, so why should the tank have to make up for that? If the DPS rip hate, well maybe they'll learn the value of their enmity tools for the next time.

[Kurando]

Definitely all roles should make an effort to manage their enmity, but at the end of the day content (unless it's Ultimate perhaps?) is balanced around tanks being in their tank stance and using the necessary tools regularly to maintain aggro. If any tank wants to go DPS stance just to maximize their damage output but then find themselves competing for aggro then something has to give, either the other players use their emnity actions (if they are available or not on cd) or the tank needs to man up and adjust as necessary. Maintaining aggro is the bigger priority than using the DPS rotation, which should only matter if you are aiming for a speed run anyway, and many DPS checks can be passed without tank assistance so it's not like you are doing everyone a favour.

Emnity actions are often optional for most roles, (aside from the few ones that are built in to other actions), while tanks have permanent access to them so it kinda says a lot on SE's part on what is and isn't the responsibility of roles. Make more emnity actions built in to others and players might actually manage their aggro more, especially those you meet through the Duty Finder.

Essentially emnity needs to stop being treated as a dick sizing contest on who can dps the most and if someone messes they up, they get punished by letting them die, it does no one any favours and only promotes toxicity because someone doesn't play how YOU want.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Essentially emnity needs to stop being treated as a dick sizing contest on who can dps the most and if someone messes they up, they get punished by letting them die, it does no one any favours and only promotes toxicity because someone doesn't play how YOU want.

By that logic, someone refusing to use Diversion is forcing tanks to play in a way they may not want to. It goes both ways. Why should I adjust and play sub-optimally because a Samurai can't be bothered to slot Diversion? What makes this worse is literally nothing changes for DPS roles if they slot an aggro dump. You weave it between your GCD and either use it on CD or hold until your next burst phase.

Now both the tank and DPS can play how they want. Why is that such a problem?

[Kurando]

snip

Because unless you are in a pre-formed party or doing content that requires the role to perform optimally, why should you even be forcing your own expected playstyle on to other players. You shouldn't, and unless SE decide to merge more emnity management skills in to current job actions (so they are not optional), then there is absolutely nothing to enforce that expectation.

Yes it does help when the whole team does their part, but in the end the role of tanks is to maintain aggro, there is no "play in a way they may not want to" about it. While DPS and Healers CAN assist using skills, this is not an actual requirement. If the tank is able to keep aggro and the content is still cleared regardless (i.e. no one is actively preventing completion), then managing emnity is suddenly a moot point.

[Lyth]

FFXIV has a lot of role overlap. Healers have some of the best tools to shield and heal up raidwide damage. But tanks and dps contribute here too, with abilities like Veil, Shake, Addle, and Mantra. You might think that only tanks are involved in mitigating tankbusters, but both healers and dps are involved here too, with abilities like Adlo, Benison, Palisade, and Apoc. Similarly, you might think that a dps check is purely the remit of damage dealers, but more often than not, tanks and healers find themselves playing more aggressively to push those last few percentages into a clear.

At lower difficulty levels, this means that good players can cross compensate for weaker players. At higher difficulty levels, this sort of "cross-role" gameplay isn't optional. The goal is never to just "do your job". The goal is to contribute everything that you can to your teammates so that you can win.

RDM and SMN are dps. Why should you raise dead players? Raising is a dps loss. Let the healers do it. After all, it's their job. Not yours. Your job is to mentally afk while creating an exciting fireworks display. If you wipe, you can always blame it on them. They should just heal better. Right?

If a dps refuses to use their enmity tools, you're forced to find other ways to make up the difference. At the end of the day, your goal is to clear the content, and do so as efficiently as possible, even if it means losing out on a bit of dps. Sometimes you have to work around a weaker player. But that also means that when you have a choice of teammates, you're going to pick someone with a similar mindset. Not someone who thinks that it's "not their job" to use their toolkit to its full potential in order to win.

[InfiniDragon]

No, I'm promoting that DPS use the tools given to them instead of saying "it's the tanks reaponsibility, not mine", which is basically what a few have said in this thread (Boris, for example, who said tanks should use more aggro combos or tank stance instead of his BLM using Lucid or Diversion to make things easier).

If the DPS refuse to use enmity tools, it is not the tank's responsibility to make up for their ineptitude. If DPS are actively rotating Diversion/Lucid/Refresh/Tactician/Elusive Jump and still catching the tank on enmity, then there are no issues with tanks having to switch into tank stance for a couple of GCDs, or do an extra enmity combo or two. But if the DPS are not, why should the tank be the one to adjust? They're a party member, but that's not teamwork. That's, again, forcing the responsibility onto the tank because DPS are too lazy to hit a button to quell or halve their current enmity.

I don't play tanks often. So the insinuation I'm just wanting to DPS with faster queues is incorrect. I do, however, play healers, and if someone (who is not brand new to the Duty) dies more than three times to avoidable damage; I stop raising them because they're now a liability to, and a waste of, my MP. I also keep track of my enmity on WHM, and manage it accordingly. I don't feel sorry for other WHMs that don't. If my enmity is unavoidable due to sheer amounts of healing even with Lucid rotating, then usually tanks adjust when I've done all I can. I don't blame them for not adjusting, though, if I'm pulling aggro and sitting on Lucid twiddling my thumbs.

DPS should use their enmity tools. Tanks should do extra aggro combos or switch to tank stance if they are still being caught by those DPS. But by DPS who refuse to hit Diversion or Lucid or another enmity tool? No, I don't think a tank should compensate for that. The DPS isn't being a team player, so why should the tank have to make up for that? If the DPS rip hate, well maybe they'll learn the value of their enmity tools for the next time.

Preach. Enmity is everyone's responsibility.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Because unless you are in a pre-formed party or doing content that requires the role to perform optimally, why should you even be forcing your own expected playstyle on to other players. You shouldn't, and unless SE decide to merge more emnity management skills in to current job actions (so they are not optional), then there is absolutely nothing to enforce that expectation.

I reiterate. Why should they force their laziness onto me? By refusing to slot Diversion/Lucid, you're demanding the tank accommodate your laziness and blaming them if they choose not to when you have an option to entirely mitigate the problem without hampering your own DPS.

[DRKoftheAzure]

As a DRK main, after the Power Slash buff I have been using Dark Arts + Power Slash a lot more outside of tank stance (I only use Souleater combo for Delirium for extended Blood Weapon) and I end up ripping aggro off of the other tanks and healers "oh shit" instinct kicks in and co-tank(s) more than likely just give up on holding aggro but still maintain a decent amount of aggro when needed... if Power Slash Dark Arts combo potency was increased by 170 and Syphon Strike gave 10 Blood Gauge as a combo bonus, I wonder which combo would be used more for DRK rotation... either way I'm just speaking from running standard content(no savage or extreme fights)...

[SiriusSaltstice]

As a DRK main, after the Power Slash buff I have been using Dark Arts + Power Slash a lot more outside of tank stance (I only use Souleater combo for Delirium for extended Blood Weapon) and I end up ripping aggro off of the other tanks and healers "oh shit" instinct kicks in and co-tank(s) more than likely just give up on holding aggro but still maintain a decent amount of aggro when needed... if Power Slash Dark Arts combo potency was increased by 170 and Syphon Strike gave 10 Blood Gauge as a combo bonus, I wonder which combo would be used more for DRK rotation... either way I'm just speaking from running standard content(no savage or extreme fights)...

Aggro combo as offtank.
10/10.