It would be nice not to be hated

[Paruza]

If you don't raid in savage this post is not relevant to you, feel free to skip.

I main WHM and when SAM came out I leveled one and practiced & geared it on my off time to try something new. I'm pretty solid with it today, but I'll say this, it's really unfortunate that sam brings nothing other than dps.

I'm not going to say that sam is bad or that they need buffs. They do plenty of dps, are a fun class to play, and even at the highest levels in ultimate raid dps can be plenty high enough with a sam in your party. However, everyone is naturally somewhat selfish and the fact is that if you have a sam in your party, others in the party will not post as high numbers. This directly leads to statics not taking sams, PF groups omitting them, and group morale suffering in general. The same is true for black mage.

When the next expansion comes out I sincerely hope that square can adjust dps only classes so as to give other players an excuse to find them acceptable.

[Wayfinder3]

It's a touchy subject for sure, unfortunately even if SAM were to balanced around having utility, it's very well possible that sam will still not be better than the other 3 options or at least strong enough to warrant taking. I think the mentality is more so the issue rather than the jobs themselves when talking about melee. NIN is so weak in personal dps that trick attack keeps it relevant for the most part and it's enmity tools help too. DRG is the most oppressive because of how free disembowel is as raid utility for ranged dps. I don't think there will ever be a way to balance melee simply because there are 4 of them so the only reasonable solution is for the dev team to either handle jobs with a meta rotation in mind so that all jobs get the chance to be relevant; A set rotation of sorts or, just keep doing what they're doing and hope SAM gets lucky.

SAM and MNK have the misfortune of watching NIN and DRG dominate the raid scene for almost 2 years now, nin has always been meta so i think it's time that other jobs get some new tools to make nin less dominant.

[Paruza]

I really don't think it's a question of balance. Really all the jobs in ffxiv are balanced extremely well, you can do any fight with anything and not be set back all that much for using a technically non optimal setup. There have been sam's that have cleared ultimate, and the dps check is quite tight. The issue though is that if you take a sam the rest of the group's personal dps numbers will not be as good as they would be otherwise. This means that they post worse numbers to fflogs, and because of that make everyone else look worse than they are. This means sam, blm, etc are just not wanted. Not because they aren't good, not because it holds the group back, but because there are real consequences for the other players in the group. You just don't want a situation where players can think "I'm getting nothing personally for accepting this class".

[Wayfinder3]

"All Jobs can clear content" i've yet to hear anyone who has discredit this claim so the amount of people who sling this phrase around must be doing so to confirm it to themselves. this claim doesn't account for the risk you take when bringing other jobs, BLM lack of utility isn't whats going to hurt you in prog, but it's turret play style will when compared to the more mobile options, SAM's dps isn't so high that MNK and mantra are seen as inferior for progression or the enmity manipulation of NIN and DRG's Disembowel speaks for themself in prog and farm.

I don't think there are many SAM's that cleared ultimate without having done so prior on another job, Also i don't think the lack of utility is so much a problem for SAM and BLM as it is a fixiation of the community on having the best or otherwise better alternatives, RDM sees a lot of hate and it has utility(Embolden is actually pretty solid) because it's personal dps isn't as high and many groups would have a BRD before a MCH if they're not taking both. Groups want the meta even when they don't need it, this game also has some interesting balancing issues since alot of the easier to play jobs tend to be the better to play. MCH and BRD are probably equal in depth but, DRG is much easier than the other 3, and Nin is only slightly harder. SAM has a lot of opportunities to be sub par while MNK is the most difficult to play well of all 4 do to the fact it's rotation is the most susceptible to fight variance. SAM's have more issues besides not having utility

Being unable to contribute meaningful utility means
Death, Downtime persistent phases, High skill ceiling, lack of utility, no defensive options = a job that just doesn't have anything worth looking at thus making it too risky for no tangible reward and i find that to be SAM's true problem. at least BLM has addle/shift which is unique in single caster comps

[Risvertasashi]

"All Jobs can clear content" i've yet to hear anyone who has discredit this claim so the amount of people who sling this phrase around must be doing so to confirm it to themselves. this claim doesn't account for the risk you take when bringing other jobs

There's more to it than that. A lot of people will also say meta doesn't matter if you aren't a top group. Well.

I mean, suppose you (theoetical 'you') are a crappy bard. You still benefit from nin+drg melees (and further from the mch vuln up too). You don't need to be a top end speedkiller in a high end static. Even if a person is average or bad, they can still take advantage of and benefit from synergies.

So yeah, "well your job isn't incapable of clearing content" isn't much consolation when no one wants you around anyways, or everyone tolerates you but really wishes you'd switch to that other job, and they'd get a better fflogs ranking if only you would...

[Paruza]

We are sort of talking about two different things. I don't disagree with you about anything you just said, Sam is clearly the worst dps for all the reasons you just mentioned. I definitely agree that they should continue working on balance, improving balance will help improve their chances of getting a decent static, but this is not the main reason why pug parties lock sam's out. Say you buffed sam or blm damage up to the point where they were doing so much more damage that it was even meta for speed runners. They would STILL be locked out of pugs and many statics solely because everyone else in the group would have worse parses. If they did so much damage that it was clear to everyone that they should have a sam, it would just replace one issue with another, they would replace drg and with that brd.

So yes absolutely improve balance, but without utility and especially dps buffs there will always be a large amount of resistance to others letting them into groups.

[FeliAiko]

PFs that lock out SAMs, BLMs etc are funny. As if PF groups are going to bring the level of coordination needed that makes the meta jobs work in the first place. If anything the 'wild wild west' nature of PFs makes the selfish Jobs shine.

[HyoMinPark]

RDM sees a lot of hate and it has utility(Embolden is actually pretty solid)

Embolden is actually really weak in terms of the overall gain it can give a raid if you compare it to other major rBuffs - I'm not talking about TA since it's difficult to beat that in overall rDPS contribution, but things like Litany, Battle Voice, Brotherhood, Hypercharge, Chain Strategem, Balance, Spear, BRD's Crit buff, or even Foe's. It's also incredibly annoying to optimize around, as it is 2 minutes as opposed to 3 (so it won't align with the major trinity of TA+BV+Litany unless you hold it), its decaying attribute (Embolden-3 is not that great, and Embolden-2 and Embolden-1 are negligible), and the fact that using it selfishly hurts the raid, while lining it up with TA in openers and other points where full raid burst is ready oftentimes hurts the RDM using it. It also doesn't offer any synergy with other casters, as its magical damage only.

Personally, I think in a game where utility and raid buffs are so important, selfish jobs that offer no utility like SAM and BLM won't ever be "in favor" for groups that are interested in optimization.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

PFs that lock out SAMs, BLMs etc are funny. As if PF groups are going to bring the level of coordination needed that makes the meta jobs work in the first place. If anything the 'wild wild west' nature of PFs makes the selfish Jobs shine.

They don't need top tier coordination. Buffs remain buffs. So long as the Dragoon and Ninja are competent, Disembowel, Litany and Trick Attack will still provide significant rdps. Sure, the Ninja may bunny a couple times or the Dragoon may put Dragon Sight on the wrong person, but it won't be enough of a loss. Another factor—one I see being the biggest contributor—is the inherent risk of bringing Samurai or Black Mage. If you get a bad one, they are a complete liability since all they offer is damage. After all, a bad Dragoon will still buff the physical range. PF's always a crapshoot. Groups blocking out the aforementioned jobs may simply be trying to minimize their risk.

For those reasons, I want the devs to abandon selfish roles and give them utility. It didn't work in Heavensward, and it isn't working Stormblood. Just like damage debuffs (Piercing, Slashing and Blush), it's something that needs to go.

[Ryaz]

What's funny is that Samurai in FFT actually had some support abilities. They could recover ally health or put a protective shield on them, drain mp from targets, slow, confuse or doom enemies, and give haste to the party.

I'd love to have a couple of these abilities. A consistent slow to mitigate damage on tanks and a group haste buff would go a long way.